Let me know if this is mentioned somewhere else.

But it just hit me that the 2 forms of powerful magic the series, Voldemort's horcrux magic which allows him to evade death, and Lily's Ancient magic which allowed Harry to survive the AK curse, in application are the exact opposites of each other.

Voledmort must kill someone else in order to create a Horcrux which makes him invincible.

• Lily had to sacrifice herself for Harry in order for Harry to survive the attack from Voldemort.  
• I wonder if Lily knew about LV's Horcruxes and that the only way for Harry to survive was for an equally powerful, but exact opposite type of magic to be performed on Harry.

Very obvious to all, but it just hit me how they are opposites.

Good points!  Personally, I was surprised that Lily was such a potions whiz, I thought her best subject would be Charms, as Mr. Olivander made the comment about how Lily's wand was great for Charm work (when Harry bought his wand in book one).
So, what I was going to say was I always suspected that there was more to the scar and Harry's living through AK---I thought perhaps Lily had put some kind of Charm on Harry just in case, that needed her self-sacrefice to be complete.
But, looks like I am really wrong on that case!!!

QUOTE(puddlemere @ Aug. 20 2005,08:50 )

But it just hit me that the 2 forms of powerful magic the series, Voldemort's horcrux magic which allows him to evade death, and Lily's Ancient magic which allowed Harry to survive the AK curse, in application are the exact opposites of each other.

Voledmort must kill someone else in order to create a Horcrux which makes him invincible.

• Lily had to sacrifice herself for Harry in order for Harry to survive the attack from Voldemort.  
• I wonder if Lily knew about LV's Horcruxes and that the only way for Harry to survive was for an equally powerful, but exact opposite type of magic to be performed on Harry.

Nice thinking! And it makes total sense! *impressed* I also think there is more to Lily's sacrifice, maybe even DD overlooked

Great idea!
But what was this ancient magic? The million (or should I say, billion) dollar question...
How did Lily make the AK curse rebound? Any theories?

i wonder if lily knew what she was doing at the time?

excellent points.

mariemichon, the ancient magic was merely lily's love for her son - as manifested through her (unecessary) sacrifice of her own life for the sake of her son. this is an old magic that voldemort knows, despises and therefore underestimates. apparently, as far as we know, this is what made the AK curse rebound.

as for the question of, 'did lily know about the horcruxes'... i doubt it. i don't think she was 'thinking ahead' at the time - she was just showing maternal instinct... protection of her young. that's why she sacrificed herself - it was just something inside her that made her spring to protect harry.

it is, however, a really interesting theory and very valid points you make there.

Did Lily do a particular spell on Harry in order to stop him dying, or was it simply a case of the knock on effect of  a natural maternal instinct? did she do it on purpose? I personally dont think she did, but if she had it puts a whole different spin on things.

The Ancient Magic is EROS : Love, the spirit that conflicts with THANATOS : Death.
This concept is in all Myth, in all cultures throughout the ages because it's inside all of us (humans).
Our psyche - or mentality/soul - is constructed from our first relationship...the object of our first ideal bliss and (sometimes) of our first hostility...our MOTHERS.
Tom Riddle's Mother's death was similar to abandonment; this filled his emotional void with aggressive impulses and a fixation with Death.
Harry Potter's Mother's death was the ultimate act of Love; her sacrifice imparted in Harry (magically in this case) her presence. Lily's love will forever be with Harry, making him a complete Hero who's capable of (who's nature is...) nourishing, protective, Love.
While Lily's love resides inside Harry, Voldemort's curse (or any attempt to possess him) is useless.
Great topic...I like the concept of Anti-Horcrux

QUOTE(tonksrocks @ Aug. 20 2005,10:47 )

i wonder if lily knew what she was doing at the time?

She did not know her sacrifice would save Harry, because as JKR said it had never happened before.  In hindsight LV understood that it was ancient magic that spared harry... but since it was the first time it happened, he didn't see it coming and nor did Lily.

Right, hit the nail on the head.

then why would lily choose to die? if she didn't know that her death would stop harry's, then why did she decide to die? was it because she thoiught that lv would be content in killing her instead of harry or that she thought that living without harry and james would be impossible? Oe that she couldnt bare to see harry die? I mean wouldnt she have been able to continue fighting and would have been an asset by living? (i m still not saying that she did the wrong thing or that i would do anything different, but i am just curious as to why she did it)

I think Lily did it because could she honestly live with herself if she stepped aside to let her 1-year-old boy be murdered? I know I couldnt! Plus... Its more along the lines of You'll have to get through me before you can hurt Harry! She gave up her life to give Harry any chance of a longer life, even if, what she probably thought, it was going to be a few more minutes. Make sense? lol If not ignore me :beanie:

QUOTE(tonksrocks @ Aug. 20 2005,9:44 pm)

then why would lily choose to die? ... or that she thought that living without harry and james would be impossible? Oe that she couldnt bare to see harry die? I mean wouldnt she have been able to continue fighting and would have been an asset by living?

I think that Lily just loved Harry so much...I mean he was her first child, her only son and she was young and he was only a baby. Being as kind and caring as she was she couldn't have lived without James, the love of her life, or Harry, her child. I don't think she could have spared living a moment after her infant son was murdered.
It was very noble what she did...maybe she knew that it might save Harry, maybe not.
:cry: this is all so sad.

I wonder if you're correct, and if Lily knew the ancient love magic would counteract the ancient dark magic of the horcruxes, what would this have to do with her eyes?  We know from interview answers Jo has given that we will learn something important about Lily's past, and that the significance of Harry having his mother's eyes will be revealed in book 7.  Did her eyes allow her to see something no one else could?

QUOTE(HawthorneAndPhoenix @ Aug. 20 2005,21:54 )

I wonder if you're correct, and if Lily knew the ancient love magic would counteract the ancient dark magic of the horcruxes, what would this have to do with her eyes?  We know from interview answers Jo has given that we will learn something important about Lily's past, and that the significance of Harry having his mother's eyes will be revealed in book 7.  Did her eyes allow her to see something no one else could?

There's a quote from JKR that I'm trying to find about Lily not knowing her sacrifice would save harry.  Because, well, it had never happened before! Soo... she didn't know

I don't think that it happened so that she thought that by dying, Harry would live. It was probably more like Voldy said to step aside he just wanted her son and motherly intuition said h*ll no, this is my child you're talking about. If you want him you have to go through me first, kind of thing.

QUOTE(kystone @ Aug. 20 2005,22:03 )

 If you want him you have to go through me first, kind of thing.

We're on the same page because I said the same thing

FOUND THE QUOTE

QUOTE

MA: Did she know anything about the possible effect of standing in front of Harry?
JKR: No - because as I've tried to make clear in the series, it never happened before. No one ever survived before. And no one, therefore, knew that could happen.
MA: So no one - Voldemort or anyone using Avada Kedavra - ever gave someone a choice and then they took that option [to die] -
JKR: They may have been given a choice, but not in that particular way.

God you're an awesome quote finder! How do you do it?

QUOTE(austin1 @ Aug. 20 2005,22:09 )

God you're an awesome quote finder! How do you do it?

Well, its a 3 Step program actually

Step 1 - Have no life
Step 2 - Have a good memory
Step 3 - Google baby! whoohoo! (And the leaky cauldron! :wink: )

I wonder what JKR means by "that particular way"? You're either given a choice to live, or you're not. How's Lily's case so special?  :conf:

QUOTE(Ginny16 @ Aug. 20 2005,22:11 )

QUOTE(austin1 @ Aug. 20 2005,22:09 )

God you're an awesome quote finder! How do you do it?

Well, its a 3 Step program actually

Step 1 - Have no life
Step 2 - Have a good memory
Step 3 - Google baby! whoohoo! (And the leaky cauldron! :wink: )

Very interesting!

QUOTE(danseuse @ Aug. 20 2005,22:12 )

I wonder what JKR means by "that particular way"? You're either given a choice to live, or you're not. How's Lily's case so special?  :conf:

Good point, and I think to know why she is so special we'd have to know why she was even given the choice to live.  LV doesn't have a problem with gettin rid of people in the way, but why offer life to Lily... Hmm

Might be because she's a girl, but Voldemort is the purest of evils so it was probably just for fun, toying around with her life.

QUOTE(danseuse @ Aug. 20 2005,10:12 pm)

I wonder what JKR means by "that particular way"? You're either given a choice to live, or you're not. How's Lily's case so special?  

Maybe it's about motive...or maybe Lily was younger, and in many ways more needed than those who were offered before. Or maybe the offers to live, prior to Lily, were empty- just talk.
Ugh, I hope JKR's having a realllllly nice laugh at our expense.
:forehead:  :neer:  :headache: :couch: :idea:
sorry i just love those smilies

i think that particular way is dieing for someone, protecting someone

QUOTE(Jill @ Aug. 20 2005,22:23 )

QUOTE(danseuse @ Aug. 20 2005,10:12 pm)

I wonder what JKR means by "that particular way"? You're either given a choice to live, or you're not. How's Lily's case so special?  

Maybe it's about motive...or maybe Lily was younger, and in many ways more needed than those who were offered before. Or maybe the offers to live, prior to Lily, were empty- just talk.
Ugh, I hope JKR's having a realllllly nice laugh at our expense.
sorry i just love those smilies

I love the smillies too! I jus discovered the other similes! cant get enough :eep: :party: :sucker:

I think the difference is that Lily actually made the choice to die and it was completely pure of heart, and out of love for her son.  Others may have choosen to live, or maybe only choose to die to piss off the one with the wand?? Idk, :ponder:

he must have really been planning to let her live or else it wouldn't have been considered a sacrifice.... i mean it only became that because she choose to die over living hoping to protect harry

Lily choose to die for her son.  Like DD said, its all about the choices.  The thing that gets me is LV finds the Potters and kills James, no questions asked.  Lily runs with Harry, and LV catches them (doesn't sound like they got too far), so why doesn't he just kill them both?  Why give Lily the choice? LV wouldn't care that Lily was a woman, I'm sure plenty of other women had been killed before Lily. I think that is significant.  Lily was given the chance to just step aside by the most evil wizard on earth.

QUOTE(Love4Fawkes @ Aug. 20 2005,22:39 )

 I think that is significant.  Lily was given the chance to just step aside by the most evil wizard on earth.

I agree, and LV wouldnt let her live becasue someone asked him to either.  He doesn't have friends and therefore wouldn't do that for anyone.  That means LV had a plan for Lily, but she was obviously replaceable... Maybe he was going to use the Imperius Curse on her... hmm?

Sorry Ginny16, I didn't read the whole thing before posting.

QUOTE(kystone @ Aug. 20 2005,22:47 )

Sorry Ginny16, I didn't read the whole thing before posting.

About what? :conf: I wasn't saying you copied me haha its a common phrase. I was jus like oh sweet, someone is thinking along the same lines! No worries!

QUOTE(Love4Fawkes @ Aug. 20 2005,8:39 pm)

Lily choose to die for her son.  Like DD said, its all about the choices.  The thing that gets me is LV finds the Potters and kills James, no questions asked.  Lily runs with Harry, and LV catches them (doesn't sound like they got too far), so why doesn't he just kill them both?  Why give Lily the choice? LV wouldn't care that Lily was a woman, I'm sure plenty of other women had been killed before Lily. I think that is significant.  Lily was given the chance to just step aside by the most evil wizard on earth.

Woops, sorry guys. i'm still figuring out how to work all these forum posting tools. anyway, I was going to say that I think there might be something in the Snape-Lily connection that people are talking about, though i'm definitely not a shipper. What if Snape has some particular attraction to Lily and has made a point of convincing LV that there is a place for her talent and intelligence among the DEs? Or something along those lines....or anyone, it doesn't have to be Snape, but we see his interaction with her being VERY different than his exchange with James and the other marauders (in OotP), plus he never says anything negative about her. All the snide comments and insults are directed at James, instead. Hmm.

QUOTE(penelope @ Aug. 20 2005,23:31 )

Woops, sorry guys. i'm still figuring out how to work all these forum posting tools. anyway, I was going to say that I think there might be something in the Snape-Lily connection that people are talking about, though i'm definitely not a shipper. What if Snape has some particular attraction to Lily and has made a point of convincing LV that there is a place for her talent and intelligence among the DEs? Or something along those lines....or anyone, it doesn't have to be Snape, but we see his interaction with her being VERY different than his exchange with James and the other marauders (in OotP), plus he never says anything negative about her. All the snide comments and insults are directed at James, instead. Hmm.

Maybe Snape did ask for her to be spared, but unless her living would serve a specific purpose I cant see her being given the choice to live. IMO tho :wink:

Hmmm, an anti-horcrux seems...very plausible!!!
What else can counter this but an opposite yet equally powerful magic!

QUOTE(Ginny16 @ Aug. 20 2005,22:27 )

I think the difference is that Lily actually made the choice to die and it was completely pure of heart, and out of love for her son.  Others may have choosen to live, or maybe only choose to die to piss off the one with the wand?? Idk, :ponder:

Well explained Ginny16.  It's difficult for a mother to choose to die plainly because who would take care of her son?  Even if you have made the best arrangements in the world, leaving your or choosing death is just too heart-breaking if you think about it.  Lily loves her son so much and would do anything to save both Harry and herself (James also if possible) but if you are faced with the ultimate evil man (LV) who just doesn't care, even though she was given the chance to live, Lily chose to die and took the risk of leaving Harry parentless and in alone.  

I sometimes think that Lily is a great risk-taker because if she was not aware of this ancient magic (or the idea of an anti-horcrux) or a charm to repel AK, then she was really betting against the odds.  Perhaps she might also be knowledgreable in inventing spells or charms and was able to create a charm that blocks the AK curse (comparable to creating an antidote from the knowledge of the potion's ingredients)...

Sorry if I am rambling on and not making enough sense but it's difficult to put into words actually.

Hats off to Puddlemere for a great thread!!!

I think it was special because for a certain reason Voldemort never intended to kill her. Even at the time she started being an annoyance for him, when refusing to stand aside from Harry, he was determined to keep her alive.

What if she was killed by accident? What if Voldemort just pushed her away before sending the AK curse on Harry and Lily, in an act of desperation, jumped between the curse and the baby, getting killed in this way?
Voldemort depreciated Lily’s action because he saw it a stupid act: he was going to kill Harry anyway, and in his opinion Lily has just wasted her opportunity to live.
But Lily was moved by Love, and Voldemort never understood its power. When he raised his wand against Harry for the 2nd time, all what we already know happened.