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Strix
I've done massive back-research on the Harry Potter books... and here's some clues - deaper meanings - I've found that might be important or help, or just bore you to death... if thats the case, sorry!

Voldemort's Main Goal in Life.... and the Yew tree:

First I thought.... Voldemort's main goal in life is not to kill Harry, Dumbledore, or mudbloods and muggles. It's to beat death. He tells Harry himself in the GOF in the cemetary. Because death is what Voldemort is most afraid of... it's his only self-percieved weakness.

Now... moving on from that... but with that in mind.... Take a look at all the scenes that include death, or have something to do with death in some way shape or form - excluding Sirius's death. Jo likes to leave us patterns in her books of clues to string together and I think I've found a some further information that might help with theories for the final book...

The scenes...


Cemetary (associated w/ death) in GOF
Thestrals (associated w/ death) in the dark forest during Hagrid's class in OOTP (And there is more, but you get the jist.)
Both scenes mention YEW trees. Well, in ancient times wands that were made from the yew tree where only used for evil magic and always associated with death!

Voldemort's wand is made out of yew... a symbol of death, itself.

Now... Harry's scar... a HUGE symbol in itself... not only because of what it does, but also what it means...  (IMHO)

In the runic alphabet, the zig-zag shape (similar to that of a lightning bolt) of Harry's scar is a rune called "eihwaz" & has specific meaning... and I quote....

Eihwaz:

MEANING: yew
DIVINATORY MEANINGS: change, initiation, confrontation of fears, turning point, death, transformation
MAGICAL USES: to bring about profound change, to ease a life transition -- (how about for easing Voldemort into death.. one piece of his soul at a time?)
ASSOCIATED MYTHS & DEITIES: Hel, Yggdrasil

ANALYSIS:

The yew tree has been associated with runes, magic and death in northern and western Europe since time immemorial. The reasons for this ancient association are numerous, but seem to principally derive from the fact that yews are evergreens which retain their greenery even through the death of winter, and because their red berries are symbolic of the blood of life. The yew is also extremely long-lived, thus effectively 'immortal'. Reverence for the yew dates back to before the times of the Celts, and continues today in Christian tradition. Eihwaz is the thirteenth rune in the fuþark, and marks the middle of the alphabet. (It is interesting to note that the Death card in the Tarot is also the thirteenth card.) This rune is the turning point in the runic journey, and represents the transformation phase of the initiatory process. All rites of passage, particularly those marking the transition into adulthood, contain the symbolism of death, the idea being that one's former 'self' has died and given birth to a new persona. Eihwaz is the passage through which we must enter the realm of Hel in order to gain the knowledge and acceptance of our own mortality, as well as those mysteries which can only be learned from the dark Lady of the dead. The process is a truly frightening one, but it is something we all must go through if we are to confront our deepest fears and emerge with the kind of wisdom that cannot be taught but must be experienced. Eihwaz is the gateway to this wisdom, and lies between life (jera) and rebirth (perþ).

And JK herself made a point to make the Eihwaz rune stand out...

Order of the Pheonix; page 715 U.S. addition...

"How were the runes?" said Ron, yawning and stretching.
"I mistranslated 'ehwaz,'" said Hermione furiously. "It means 'partnership,' not 'defence,' I mixed it up with 'eihwaz.'"

That's a nice and sly little clue, if I ever saw one, I must admit! wink.gif

Now on to Harry's wand....

While Voldemort's wand is made of Yew... Harry's wand is made of Holly....

HOLLY* (Ilex aquifolium)

A beautiful white wood with an almost invisible grain; looks very much like ivory. Holly is associated with the death and rebirth symbolism of winter in both Pagan and Christian lore. In Arthurian legend, Gawain (representing the Oak King of summer) fought the Green Knight, who was armed with a holly club to represent winter. It is one of the three timbers used in the construction of chariot wheel shafts. It was used in spear shafts also. The qualities of a spear shaft are balance and directness, as the spear must be hefted to be thrown the holly indicates directed balance and vigour to fight if the cause is just. Holly may be used in spells having to do with sleep or rest, and to ease the passage of death.

BTW ... everyone seems to think that Harry can't use his wand to kill Voldemort... Says who??? The two wands just can't do battle with eachother at the exact same time.

(Forewarning... not for certain about the following, but its something to chew on... ) What was the clue she gave that something small and seemingly insignificant happens in the Chamber of Secrets that may seem like nothing now but later on will play a big roll? Was it Harry ending up in knockturn alley and hiding in the vanishing cabinet? Draco wanting the hand-of-glory? We know now, that all was significant... but was it the only thing? Maybe. But what if there's something else? So, if thats not the 'little insignificant clue', then what is?

Let's keep on the subject of the wands, now... because they seem to be extremely important to the story. What if that little thing that happened in the COS was Ron's wand breaking? Voldemort's power of death is in his wand... the yew itself is powerful.

Have you noticed that Ron did use that wand the entire year... it worked... but was messed up. BUT the ONLY spells that backfired on the person using the wands where the bad ones.... the curses!?

Hmmmm.... If we could just damage Voldemort's wand somehow... impale him on his own sword... send the last horcrux on... yes... yes... that would do it... after all ... he has Harry's mortal blood flowing through his veins now! (Maybe there's something to that too? Maybe, in being blinded by his wanting to 'touch' Harry, he made himself -the last horcrux- a little 'weaker' and easier to kill? )POOF! No more "He-Who-Is-Going-To-Be-Killed-By-Harry-In-The-End-Anyways!"

OK I'm getting a bit overly excited and rambling now. So I'll stop. smile.gif
Sabrielrules
wow that's a lot of info!!
it's really interesting
i agree with you about the wands but it might be annoying to have to take turns in cursing.
killer
That must have taken you a while, and cudos. biggrin.gif
However, when did she say something small in CoS would play a large part in the rest of the story? Because if it was before HBP came out, it might just be the fact that the diary was a horcrux.
HawthorneAndPhoenix
That is an overwhelmingly impressive bit of research there!  And the information is very interesting, I especially like the "clue" Hermione gives.  I'd be interested to hear your opinion on these two points:
Voldemort and Harry will most likely not be able to use their own wands to fight each other, due to Priori Incantatem (Is this why master wandmaker Ollivander has disappeared, perhaps?), and
Here is a quote from JKRowling.com that supports your idea that Jo deliberately used holly as the wood for Harry's wand:
QUOTE
WANDS
I gave Harry a wand made of holly wood back in 1990, when I first drafted chapter six of ‘Philosopher’s Stone’. It was not an arbitrary decision: holly has certain connotations that were perfect for Harry, particularly when contrasted with the traditional associations of yew, from which Voldemort’s wand is made. European tradition has it that the holly tree (the name comes from ‘holy’) repels evil, while yew, which can achieve astonishing longevity (there are British yew trees over two thousand years old), can symbolise both death and resurrection; the sap is also poisonous.

Some time after I had given Harry his holly-and-phoenix wand I came across a description of how the Celts had assigned trees to different parts of the year and discovered that, entirely by coincidence, I had assigned Harry the ‘correct’ wood for his day of birth. I therefore decided to give Ron and Hermione Celtic wand woods, too. Ron, who was born in the February 18 - March 17 period, was given an ash wand (I think I had originally marked him down for beech), and Hermione, who was born between September 2 and September 29, received a vine wood wand (I can’t remember what I originally stipulated for Hermione; possibly I had not specified a wood for her at that stage).

I have only used the Celtic assignations for Ron and Hermione. Hagrid, for instance, has an oak wand though by this Celtic system he should have a wand made of elder; in Britain, the oak is ‘King of the Forest’ and symbolises strength, protection and fecundity; what other wood could ‘choose’ Hagrid? In any case, I liked having a hidden connection between Harry, Ron and Hermione’s wands that only I knew about (until now, anyway).


Here is the link for that quote.
AMB
Wow! What you said makes a lot of sense and I bet it's right. However, I don't think Voldemort and Harry are going to take turns cursing each other. What I think is going to happen is Harry is going to do something involving Prior Incatenem (Did I spell that right?) to kill Voldemort. I don't know if it has something to do with Voldemort forcing the bead of light into Harry's wand or not. Of course, this is all speculation. I have no evidence.
tonksrocks
oo excellent job! that is well thought out smile.gif i really like the part that would make it seem that dd's gleam of triumph was because lv has mortal blood in him
sarahava
QUOTE(Strix @ Sep. 05 2005,13:12 )
Eihwaz:

MEANING: yew
DIVINATORY MEANINGS: change, initiation, confrontation of fears, turning point, death, transformation
MAGICAL USES: to bring about profound change, to ease a life transition -- (how about for easing Voldemort into death.. one piece of his soul at a time?)
ASSOCIATED MYTHS & DEITIES: Hel, Yggdrasil


Let's not forgot the night Harry got the scar. wink.gif  "initiation, turning point, transformation."  When the curse rebounded and left the scar, he was marked by VM and consequently initiated - or transformed - into "The Chosen One."


As for Ron's wand - it didn't work in some of his classes, either.  I think it said something about his work being worse than usual because he wand was so messed up.

I'm re-reading OoTP again and noticed the rune translation of Hermione's, too.  I thought it was interesting that both runes were noted and the meanings seemed to certainly hint at something larger.

JK is a genius!  smile.gif
~Gidg~
This is absolutely brilliant-well done and thankyou. I do remember reading the reasons Jo gave for assigning the wands and :headdesk: because I used to read the runes and I did look up Eihwaz- however the definition on my set is transcendence which means to surpass all others and be supreme.Which describes Voldemort to a T. So I didn't know about the Yew with regards to Eihwaz.
My father in law is a former arborist and told me that the Yew tree is one of the most hardy he has come across-they rarely get diseases, if they do get a disease it is rarely fatal and they are extremely tough to cut through.
The wand chose the right wizard it seems.
daydreamcharms
Good job on the research!  It was all interesting!  I especially like the Hermione bits.  JKR is just too sneaky and witty.  ;)

JKR said in one interview that it's not the shape of the scar that's important, but what ability it confers to Harry.  But I think the shape is interesting too, based on the connections with the Runes, etc.  ;)
Lilly_Rose
noone seems to have mentioned this (perhaps i didn't see it! or it's not important..) buut yew's are very poisonous also. do they have white flowers as well? perhaps it's yellow..
anyway, very interesting about the scar/ eihwaz/ yew connection. V clever! smile.gif
~Gidg~
I found a few more things on eihwaz and I have to put this one in 1st-one of the meanings I found for it was-"an honest person who can be relied on."-I don't think this description fits LV!!??!!
BUT- it's magic use is to bring about profound change,to ease a life transition and to communicate with other realms.
It's original meaning is" yew in the form of the world tree as the giver of life and death."

It's herb is MANDRAKE I have always said that madragora will play a part in LV's quest as it is a powerful restorative-it was probably in the potion in GoF-makes sense since it was a regeneration potion.
The yew tree is known for it's longevity and also for it's toxins, the two combined giving the possession of death and regeneration. There is an ancient carving in a piece of yew wood, that translated reads"Always carry this yew, strength is contained in it.
According to the runes 13 is actually the most magical number and eihwaz is the 13th rune.
It's tarot card is the hanged an-also a 13.
Understanding of the World Tree(which the yew runs through vertically) Releases you from the fear of death
Voldemort anyone??
Strix
QUOTE(gidgx @ Sep. 06 2005,6:14 am)
Understanding of the World Tree(which the yew runs through vertically) Releases you from the fear of death
Voldemort anyone??


hehehe Yup, Voldy just needs to get over his fear of death and die like the dog he is. smile.gif
Conrita
A bit off topic.

What do we know of Lily's wand. Wasn't it mentioned that she had a good potions wand. I always thought that since Harry couldn't use curses against Voldemort because of Priori incantatem, that he would use Lily's wand. I didn't like the idea too much because I like the idea of Harry using his own wand to weaken Voldemort but it was the only thing that occured to me when Harry couldn't use his own.  I still imagine Harry going to Godric Hollow and finding his mother's wand in the mess that was left when she was murdered.
tonks712
Wow this is really in - depth stuff, i love the whole eihwaz thing very clever.
Strix
Harry can still use his wand against Voldemort... he just has to be quicker to the draw than Voldemort to avoid another Priori Incantatum thing happening again.
AlyMac
just a quick correction conrita, lilys wand was good for charms not potions, the students rarely use their wands in potions, and *wow* for all the other stuff posted, way too smart for me!!!! well done!!!
Sickle
Very informative! Kudo's!

I especially like the part about broken wands...  :cool:
cloudpic
BRAVO!  What great research and thought behind your posts Strix and Hawthorne and Phoenix.  This is a great thread - I hope we can continue its' development.  
 Before I can even begin to add to this topic, I'll have to reread these posts.  
THANK YOU for your info!! thumbup.gif
daydreamcharms
QUOTE(gidgx @ Sep. 06 2005,11:14 )
According to the runes 13 is actually the most magical number and eihwaz is the 13th rune.

It's tarot card is the hanged an-also a 13.

Understanding of the World Tree(which the yew runs through vertically) Releases you from the fear of death
Voldemort anyone??


Ahhh, I *love* that part about "releases you from fear of death".  It's SO Voldie.  It'll be great to try and figure out the significance of that.  Good job, gidgx.   thumbup.gif
Strix
QUOTE(daydreamcharms @ Sep. 06 2005,4:55 pm)
QUOTE(gidgx @ Sep. 06 2005,11:14 )
According to the runes 13 is actually the most magical number and eihwaz is the 13th rune.

It's tarot card is the hanged an-also a 13.

Understanding of the World Tree(which the yew runs through vertically) Releases you from the fear of death
Voldemort anyone??


Ahhh, I *love* that part about "releases you from fear of death".  It's SO Voldie.  It'll be great to try and figure out the significance of that.  Good job, gidgx.   thumbup.gif


I love that, too... doesn't someone say that his greatest fear is his greatest weakness???

Maybe thats one reason why Voldemort was so afraid of Dumbledore. Because Dumbledore wasn't afraid to die.   :eyebrows:
~Gidg~
I've just found something else- the runic month for Eihwaz is Dec 28 to Jan 13 and it's runic hour is 12.30 am- 1.30 am.
Now please don't quote me on this, but wasn't Voldemort born  in either late Dec-early Jan? I keep thinking NYE for some reason or NYD. And what time was he born?
All that's left for me to do now is find out the Yew tree's weakness, associate that to LV and I've found out how Harry will kill LV(I wish!!) biggrin.gif
Oh and one of it's animal symbols is a serpent thumbup.gif
improbable_solution
Wow I'm impressed! You've really researched your stuff!

Well Done!!    :clap:
BrianC
That is an impressive amount of research but I cannot see that the analysis that you provide necessarily leads to the conclusion that Voldemort will be defeated by the breaking of his wand.  As I see it, and of course you may disagree, Voldemort is not afraid of death itself, but rather fears imperfection.  Mortality, in his view, comprises the ultimate imperfection.

At this point I think of Trelawney's prophecy, and I paraphrase: the Dark Lord will mark the Chosen One as his equal, though he will have a power that the Dark Lord knows not.  It is this unknown power that will destroy Voldemort, except it is very well known that this power is love.  Harry has power equal to Voldemort, but his power -- like Dumbledore's -- is not found within the dark arts and is not death and destruction.

Harry will defeat Voldemort, not by matching him curse for curse, but through the power of love and the loyalty that it inspires.  We have already seen that Harry accomplishes much through this power.  It was instrumental in his thwarting Voldemort from stealing the Philosopher's Stone, in the defeat of Tom Riddle's memory and the Basilisk, in unmasking the true identity of Scabbers and saving Sirius, and in keeping Voldemort from taking the prophecy.  Indeed, it has been remarked many times, often by Snape, that Harry "escapes" by luck and the intervention of his friends; a charge that is true from a certain viewpoint but it might also be said that Harry succeeds because of the love and loyalty between and among his friends.

I believe that the prophecy is more important than the type of wand that Voldemort carries.  Harry will defeat Voldemort, though I cannot say precisely how, with the aid of all of those who have loved him, both living and dead.  Not only will Ron and Hemrione will stand by him despite the terrible dangers that he must face, but Voldemort's Death Eaters will abandon him at the crucial time.  I also think that somehow James and Lily Potter, Sirius Black, and Albus Dumbledore will play a part in the end.

To return to the point, JKR has said plainly that she gave Voldemort a wand of yew because of its symbolic meaning of longevity.  There is no reason to believe that it has any greater significance.  In fact, a point that you have not mentioned in your wand analysis is that the core of Voldemort's wand is a phoenix feather, a much more unequivocal symbol -- not of longevity -- but of actual immortality.  Yet, because JKR gave Harry the same wand core, I would not ascribe too much meaning to the symbolic associations of the wands that they carry.  At least, I would not read more into than JKR herself has said was her intention.

Consider the point, as raised below, that Voldemort's greatest fear is his greatest weakness.  He fears imperfection and views unselfish and sacrificing love as a weakness; his mother's love for the muggle Tom Riddle killed her, after all.  So he excised love from his heart and has weakened himself.  He views restraint of magical power and protection of muggles as weakness and embraces the dark arts and murders his own father and grandfather.  He views death as a weakness and seeks, in folly, to conquer it.  Voldemort is actually quite consistent.  

The irony is that Voldemort always was and always will be imperfect, no matter how many Horcruxes he creates, because he cannot love and he cannot inspire true loyalty.
~Gidg~
I don't know how you can say that LV's greatest fear is imperfection when it is clearly stated through the series, that his greatest fear is death. She said in an interview, that his boggart, which shows people their greatest fear, would be LV seeing himself lying dead on the ground.
We are talking about his wand and the yew tree,because of a rune that Hermione mentioned when discussing her exams, and it was the meaning if this mentioned rune that started this topic. This specific rune relates to LV and his wand, and since Jo had 23 other runes to chose from but she chose this particular rune for a reason. The wand choses the wizard and LV's wand has the same characteristics as it's owner if you look at those characteristics through the aforementioned rune.
As for the Phoenix feather, I don't think it is a coincidence that the most evil wizard of all time, shares the wand core of the only one who can defeat him. Makes me think if history is repeating?What do we know of DD and Grindewald?Was there a prophecy about them? Do they share wand cores?If history is repeating it pretty much spells out that Harry will win. Or is it just one good wizard defeating a bad one? I think Jo did say we will hear more about DD and Grindelwald.
Ok so I have looked up the other rune that Hermione mixed up with which was Ehwaz. It doesn't really have any significance to Harry's wand like I suspected it might,it's tree is Oak or Ash, not Holly like I thought it might be but it's color is white symbolizing purity(eihwaz colour is dark blue)- Harry is pure at heart. It's Tarot card is The Lovers-completely opposite to The Hanged Man.
So this rune does not seem to be significant to Harry as Eihwaz is to LV. I'm going to check the other 22 runes left just in case there is something else in there, I don't know if I'll find anything, it might only be the eihwaz rune that holds any significance.
Strix
QUOTE(gidgx @ Sep. 07 2005,12:59 pm)
I've just found something else- the runic month for Eihwaz is Dec 28 to Jan 13 and it's runic hour is 12.30 am- 1.30 am.
Now please don't quote me on this, but wasn't Voldemort born  in either late Dec-early Jan? I keep thinking NYE for some reason or NYD. And what time was he born?
All that's left for me to do now is find out the Yew tree's weakness, associate that to LV and I've found out how Harry will kill LV(I wish!!) biggrin.gif
Oh and one of it's animal symbols is a serpent thumbup.gif


He was born on New Year's Eve.
luna_rocks
QUOTE(BrianC @ Sep. 07 2005,09:01 )
Harry will defeat Voldemort, not by matching him curse for curse, but through the power of love and the loyalty that it inspires.  We have already seen that Harry accomplishes much through this power.  It was instrumental in his thwarting Voldemort from stealing the Philosopher's Stone, in the defeat of Tom Riddle's memory and the Basilisk, in unmasking the true identity of Scabbers and saving Sirius, and in keeping Voldemort from taking the prophecy.  Indeed, it has been remarked many times, often by Snape, that Harry "escapes" by luck and the intervention of his friends; a charge that is true from a certain viewpoint but it might also be said that Harry succeeds because of the love and loyalty between and among his friends.

I believe that the prophecy is more important than the type of wand that Voldemort carries.  Harry will defeat Voldemort, though I cannot say precisely how, with the aid of all of those who have loved him, both living and dead.  Not only will Ron and Hemrione will stand by him despite the terrible dangers that he must face, but Voldemort's Death Eaters will abandon him at the crucial time.  I also think that somehow James and Lily Potter, Sirius Black, and Albus Dumbledore will play a part in the end.

To return to the point, JKR has said plainly that she gave Voldemort a wand of yew because of its symbolic meaning of longevity.  There is no reason to believe that it has any greater significance.  In fact, a point that you have not mentioned in your wand analysis is that the core of Voldemort's wand is a phoenix feather, a much more unequivocal symbol -- not of longevity -- but of actual immortality.  Yet, because JKR gave Harry the same wand core, I would not ascribe too much meaning to the symbolic associations of the wands that they carry.  At least, I would not read more into than JKR herself has said was her intention.

Consider the point, as raised below, that Voldemort's greatest fear is his greatest weakness.  He fears imperfection and views unselfish and sacrificing love as a weakness; his mother's love for the muggle Tom Riddle killed her, after all.  So he excised love from his heart and has weakened himself.  He views restraint of magical power and protection of muggles as weakness and embraces the dark arts and murders his own father and grandfather.  He views death as a weakness and seeks, in folly, to conquer it.  Voldemort is actually quite consistent.  

The irony is that Voldemort always was and always will be imperfect, no matter how many Horcruxes he creates, because he cannot love and he cannot inspire true loyalty.


First of all, well done Strix!! Very interesting and thought provoking, I need to read again and think some more about this. I'm fascinated by Harry and LV's woods
both heralding transformation.

BrianC, I was struck by a few things that you said. First, I absolutely agree that the support of Harry's friends and the bonds he's managed to build with them are his greatest strength, and the thing that most sets him apart from LV.

Where I start to disagree with you is on the point that the prophecy is more important. We can debate whether the woods are important, but I erally think one of the stronger points that Dumbledore made through HBP was exactly the opposite -- that choices are much more important than "destiny" or prophecies, and that the prophecy only had meaning because LV believed it and acted on it. As I think Dumbledore pointed out, if LV had never heard the prophecy, would any of it have ever happened? Would Harry have been marked? The prophecy is what it is.

As for Harry having the same wand core, maybe that goes hand in hand. We know that some piece of Voldemort, who knows how large or small, was transferred to Harry with his scar when Voldemort tried to kill him. Could be the wand with the same core "recognized" him again.

Last, I agree with you that his greatest fear is weakness, and he can't bear the idea of dying, whether from old age or battle. He can't understand that there are worse things, even having lived through some of them.

What do you think? :ponder:
Alchemist Apprentice
Great Topic- excellent research-  clap.gif
The whole runes definitions and the fact Jk has posted her thoughts about the wands on her site...  :ponder:
This topic is one I tried to start elsewhere and it did not go anywere- I am so glad you guys/gals have provided a great start here-
The point or points I wish to find out more about is Ollivander and the wands-
it cannot be such a trival point(IMO) that Ollivander disappears as V has regained much of his power and forces.

The entire scence with Harry and V's wands was not just for "special effects"!  :eyebrows:
Harry and V share so much the wands was not a glich and remember the phoienx feather is fawkes!!!

So how does Ollivander and Fawkes play into this?
Looking forward to your thoughts

(I'll save my Harry scar theory for another post)
Strix
QUOTE(doobie @ Sep. 08 2005,9:03 pm)
The point or points I wish to find out more about is Ollivander and the wands-
it cannot be such a trival point(IMO) that Ollivander disappears as V has regained much of his power and forces.


It's really quite sad, actually, the dissapearance of Mr. Ollivander. But I'm sure Voldemort wanted information from him... especially after the priori incantatum.

QUOTE(doobie @ Sep. 08 2005,9:03 pm)
The entire scence with Harry and V's wands was not just for "special effects"!  :eyebrows:


:conf:  :read:  :O  :forehead: hehehe


QUOTE(doobie @ Sep. 08 2005,9:03 pm)
Harry and V share so much the wands was not a glich and remember the phoienx feather is fawkes!!!


Well, for one thing, the wand thing saved Harry's life in GOF... and who knows? Maybe something will happen in the future thats similar? Maybe giving Harry enough time, next time, to let go and instead of escaping, Avada Kadavra-ing his @$$ while the 'ghost spells' are around Voldemort. I dunno... I'm just stabbing at the dark.
Momforsnj
wow, excellent topic! it always impresses me when you guys do all this research and it also shows how much JK puts into her work. That's what makes this series so much fun to read!

I haven't a clue how Harry and Voldemort will end things; through their wands in a duel may be the way it goes, although for some reason I think Harry will lose his wand in the end.
Alchemist Apprentice
Just another thought about Fawkes and the wands-
Fawkes has helped Harry in the past when doom was near, will another Fawke feather and or Fawkes himself break the prior incantantum?
~Gidg~
QUOTE(Strix @ Sep. 09 2005,4:02 am)
QUOTE(gidgx @ Sep. 07 2005,12:59 pm)
I've just found something else- the runic month for Eihwaz is Dec 28 to Jan 13 and it's runic hour is 12.30 am- 1.30 am.
Now please don't quote me on this, but wasn't Voldemort born  in either late Dec-early Jan? I keep thinking NYE for some reason or NYD. And what time was he born?
All that's left for me to do now is find out the Yew tree's weakness, associate that to LV and I've found out how Harry will kill LV(I wish!!) biggrin.gif
Oh and one of it's animal symbols is a serpent thumbup.gif


He was born on New Year's Eve.


Thanks for that Strix! I'm nearly finished researching the rest of the runes, so far nothing has come up to be significant to the other wands we know about, so perhaps it is just Voldemort's wand that has such strong links with the eihwaz rune. Having said that, I would love to know what DD's wand is, I have noticed a few things in the rune meanings that could have DD's name all over it. Does anyone know anything about his wand? I havn't checked yey, but what I remeber reading about people's wands, DD's was not described.
~Gidg~
I'm back. Well I've gone through them all and Eihwaz is the only rune with such a huge link to LV and his wand. The only thing I did find was that the rune 'Manaz' has it's tree as holly-but nothing else relates to Harry like Eihwaz does to LV, I would still love to know what DD's wand is. Aah well, I enjoyed doing the research!
BrianC
luna_rocks:
QUOTE
Where I start to disagree with you is on the point that the prophecy is more important. We can debate whether the woods are important, but I erally think one of the stronger points that Dumbledore made through HBP was exactly the opposite -- that choices are much more important than "destiny" or prophecies, and that the prophecy only had meaning because LV believed it and acted on it. As I think Dumbledore pointed out, if LV had never heard the prophecy, would any of it have ever happened? Would Harry have been marked? The prophecy is what it is.

Oh, I agree with you that the prophecy does not determine what will happen.  I suppose I should have been more clear in what I said.  Harry and Voldemort could choose to walk away from the conflict and the prophecy would be dead.  

What I felt was more significant in the prophecy was that Voldemort would mark the Chosen One as equal in power, but that the power of the Chosen One was unknown to Voldemort.  We know that this power is love.  Voldemort's power is founded upon, and ultimately leads to, death, destruction and fear.  Harry is equal to Voldemort, but not in the sense of blasting people into bits left and right.

For the reasons I discussed, I believe that the climax will be  a clash between these two types of power: love, loyalty and friendship versus fear, destruction and death.  

Accordingly, I see the use of yew wood in Voldemort's wand and the shape of Harry's scar as incidentals, or window dressing by JKR to give depth to the story.  

Moreover, Voldemort's wand may indeed be broken in the end; breaking of the wand (or staff) in the literary canon signifies the ending of the magical power of a wizard.  (E.g., the breaking of Hagrid's wand, Gandalf's breaking of Saruman's staff).
Alchemist Apprentice
[quote]I see the use of yew wood in Voldemort's wand and the shape of Harry's scar as incidentals, or window dressing by JKR to give depth to the story.  [QUOTE][/quote]
Brian C I got a small twinge when you refered to the wand and scar as window dressing.
Maybe its just the choice of words- but they are more...

Bits of dialogue between characters, the scar, the wands, names of the characters, locations and much more are all part of a finely weaved web that JK composes. Much like a master conductor(or spider if you want to keep in with the web analogy) Jk places these "clues in and out so the reader has places to make AHUH! connections. She also has many interwined to give indications of whhat might happen- yet take us back to a remote place to show us how she as twisted the plot again.
These "clues" are so wrapped with research and flavor they don't dress the book, or give depth but in many way lead the books. I believe the incidentals are not throw aways- but important bookmarks(if you will) of the story.

I hope that make sense
BrianC
Ah, but I did not say that the wand and the scar were incidentals.  I said that the wood used in the wand and the shape of the scar were incidentals.  By incidental I mean a detail that, while providing depth -- or backstory -- is not critical to advancing the plot.  

Keep in mind, also, that all of this discussion has been in reaction to the original hypothesis that the fact that Voldemort's wand is made of yew would be of key importance in his defeat.  My response was that it was the nature and source of the power wielded by Harry and Voldemort that would be critical in the end.  (I would add, now, also the choices that each has made, given their similar backgrounds).  In light of this, I argued, these other details were incidental.

BTW, I lurve your avatar doobie.
Alchemist Apprentice
Brian C-Well, thank you for your explianation, I do believe it was the word choice that stopped me from rereading your post.

Now when we discuss the"power" are you refering to the Celtic and runes references or the power of the phoenix feather?

:offtopic:
Thank you  blush.gif I worked Haaaard to find it and actually paste it on
wizardess
QUOTE(Strix @ Sep. 05 2005,3:12 pm)

HOLLY* (Ilex aquifolium)

A beautiful white wood with an almost invisible grain; looks very much like ivory. Holly is associated with the death and rebirth symbolism of winter in both Pagan and Christian lore. In Arthurian legend, Gawain (representing the Oak King of summer) fought the Green Knight, who was armed with a holly club to represent winter.


AHH PROFESSOR TRELAWNEY AGAIN!!!  No, I haven't gone crazy ... listen to this.

Argh I can't find the quote, don't remember where it is!  Anyway, it goes basically something like this:

Trelawney's predicting Harry's morbid future as usual, and then says something about "deaths early in life, dark hair, am I right in saying that you were born mid winter?"
Harry snorts and says no I was born in the middle of July.

Anyway - Trelawney predicted Harry was born in winter - WHICH HOLLY IS ASSOCIATED WITH.  Anybody want to go further into this?  I just thought it was an interesting parallel.

Also, about that whole ehwaz/eihwaz thing - when I read the first post (nice job, by the way) and read Hermione's thing about ehwaz meaning partnership ... I immediately though THE TRIO.  

"EHWAZ
Gem: when upright, iceland spar; when reversed, black malachite (protects from dark deeds of others) or white malachite (opens new doors or brings relevant knowledge)"

Protecting from dark deeds?  Bringing new knowledge?  Sound like certain red headed and bookwormish witch and wizard we know??

"Ehwaz also indicates cooperation, such as the cooperation between a horse and its rider."

Well, we all know they cooperate a fair bit.

So if ehwaz = partnership = the trio
Then ehiwaz = defence = Voldemort's Horcruxes???? (defence from death)

And if Hermione's getting ehiwaz and ehwaz mixed up - this means the trio is gonna get mixed up in Voldemort's Horcruxes!!

"Duh" everyone says.  But this just shows how intricate Jo's writing is.

*Edited for clarity*
Maia
QUOTE(BrianC @ Sep. 09 2005,08:42 )
luna_rocks: Moreover, Voldemort's wand may indeed be broken in the end; breaking of the wand (or staff) in the literary canon signifies the ending of the magical power of a wizard.  (E.g., the breaking of Hagrid's wand, Gandalf's breaking of Saruman's staff).


But in Potterverse wizards can get new wands if they want to. After all the wands of Sirius and the Azkaban escapees were surely destroyed, yet their ability to fling around magic seemed unimpaired after they got the substitutes.
Alchemist Apprentice
QUOTE
RE: post #38 (by Maia on Sep. 10 2005,4:52 am ) in this thread

That is an excellent point!
Even in PoA (correct me if I am wrong- but in the shreiking shack even Harry's wand was "flung around"and he was using Hermoine's[book and or movie could be confusing the two])
So if another wizard can use another wand what does the whole"the wand choses then???
and what and how will this effect V and Harry??
~Gidg~
I've just re-read the 1st 4 books. In GoF, when Lv returns, in the graveyard, to the right if Harry and Cedric, is a huge Yew tree. Jo mentions this yew tree twice more in this chapter, the DE's were shooting spells from behind the yew tree, and the leaves were not swaying on the yew tree. Jo made a point of mentioning the trees name more than once. Obviously LV's wand is a bigger part of this story, than just sharing the core of Harry's. I believe that it could hold one of the clues as to how this story will end. :ponder:
Alchemist Apprentice
QUOTE
RE: post #40 (by gidgx on Sep. 14 2005,1:33 am ) in this thread


The question is will this be something Harry stumbles on to- speaking of wands
Hagrid's wand (hidden wand) and his cross bow do they play into this? I visited Jk site and the remark of the wand I get but did I miss something about the bow?
Teiresias
Lily's wand is made of willow and is good for charm work- somebody asked this earlier

the Major Arcana of the tarot cards number 22 in all but begin at 0 and end at 21
13 is death
the 13th card is the hanged man which means sacrifice among other things and death means transformation, turning point as many here have said.
On the subject of trelawny telling harry that he was born midwinter- I think she's reading harry as if he were voldemort- who was born midwinter, and this can be explained by obvious connections between Harry and LV (the scar parceltounge etc)

As for the yew tree- they do live long, and are planted in cemetarys because they do well there (they slowly eat the dead)
death eaters springs to mind.

THe wand is also one of four commonly associated items (wand cup sword pentacle) and since we have a sword and a cup  it wouldn't surprise me if a wand turned up.
Wands haven't been fully explained yet and ollivander should be appearing in the next book (he appears at the begining of the series, in the middle and likely therefore at the end. I reckon wands will be very important- I reckon they're goingto have to go find some wand trees.
by the way he sold his last wand to neville which neville tells us and is then interuppted by his toad- jk does like to disguise information with interuption...
Teiresias
oh and by the by- any reference I make to mythology does not mean I think that JK is going to introduce a great big fifth element style story- or suggest to harry that he go look for the grail treasures- it's just to note that she is choosing her symbols carefully and specifically to add depth
americanmuggle
QUOTE(Strix @ Sep. 08 2005,14:02 )
QUOTE(gidgx @ Sep. 07 2005,12:59 pm)
I've just found something else- the runic month for Eihwaz is Dec 28 to Jan 13 and it's runic hour is 12.30 am- 1.30 am.
Now please don't quote me on this, but wasn't Voldemort born  in either late Dec-early Jan? I keep thinking NYE for some reason or NYD. And what time was he born?
All that's left for me to do now is find out the Yew tree's weakness, associate that to LV and I've found out how Harry will kill LV(I wish!!) biggrin.gif
Oh and one of it's animal symbols is a serpent thumbup.gif


He was born on New Year's Eve.




I think it is interesting that he was born on New Year's Eve, the last day of the year, which is like the "death" (if you will) of the old year.


edited to add:  BTW, I am very impressed by the knowledge possessed and the research done by members of this website.  it is *very* helpful to those of us who have little/no knowledge of any of the runes, old traditions, etc.  THANKS and a big  :thumbup: !!!   clap.gif
~Gidg~
QUOTE(doobie @ Sep. 14 2005,3:46 pm)
QUOTE
RE: post #40 (by gidgx on Sep. 14 2005,1:33 am ) in this thread


The question is will this be something Harry stumbles on to- speaking of wands
Hagrid's wand (hidden wand) and his cross bow do they play into this? I visited Jk site and the remark of the wand I get but did I miss something about the bow?

I actually don't really think this really pertains to Harry, other than the wands sharing cores and that the core is from Fawkes.
I just find it amazing how indicative LV's wand is to him. I know Jo researched alot when she created the wands, it is the fact that everything about LV's wand indicates things about LV himself, according to this particular rune. Yet when researching the other runes, there was virtually nothing realting to Harry or his wand.The rune Manaz has it's tree as a Holly tree, but that's where the similaraties end. Perhaps the properties of Harry's wand do relate to his personality like LV's does, but not in the runes. So back to my father-in-law(who was an arborist) and the web to find out more about the Holly Tree
(Or HOLY tree??)
Strix
QUOTE(Teiresias @ Sep. 14 2005,11:06 am)
oh and by the by- any reference I make to mythology does not mean I think that JK is going to introduce a great big fifth element style story- or suggest to harry that he go look for the grail treasures- it's just to note that she is choosing her symbols carefully and specifically to add depth


I so agree with this... If you look at the tools used in witchcraft for magic.... the chalice plays a big role. So does the sword or dagger - not saying GG's sword is a horcrux, cause I don't think it is, but maybe thats what might finish off Voldemort? I dunno, just guessing - the cauldron, the wand, broom, and even jewelry.
Teiresias
Interprestation of Eihwaz (yew)
This rune is often associated with death but it is never negative. It reminds us that new beginnings and fresh starts can only come after some aspect of our life has died off. It encourages us to embrace change and make the best use of the opportunities it offers.

On a cautionary note it warns us to stay alert to what is happening around us and to be prepared to defend our position.


Is this rune what is meant by "the dark lord shall mark him as his equal?"
Strix
QUOTE(Teiresias @ Sep. 16 2005,10:22 am)
Interprestation of Eihwaz (yew)
This rune is often associated with death but it is never negative. It reminds us that new beginnings and fresh starts can only come after some aspect of our life has died off. It encourages us to embrace change and make the best use of the opportunities it offers.

On a cautionary note it warns us to stay alert to what is happening around us and to be prepared to defend our position.


Is this rune what is meant by "the dark lord shall mark him as his equal?"


I think so, at least.
Narya
QUOTE(Teiresias @ Sep. 16 2005,10:22 am)
Interprestation of Eihwaz (yew)
This rune is often associated with death but it is never negative.


Here's what I posted about eihwaz in another thread, and there are definite negative connotations here - I've used bold to highlight them:  

QUOTE
Eihwaz - The Thirteenth Rune

Poison is the fruit, immortality the promise of the sacred tree

Symbolism - The Yew Tree

Keywords - Survival

Phonetically, one of the pronunciations of this rune is "eoh" or "yew". The yew is a powerful stave of protection and banishing, not only because of its association with the forces of life and death, but because of its association with the bow made of yew wood.

Eihwaz is the axis around which all else revolves and from which all else spins. It contains the mystery of life and death. It is a life giving force which has its roots in the Underworld and death.

It provides protection, and can help increase personal power and defense.

It suggests the passage and communication between different worlds and layers of reality.

This rune embodies the ideal "better not to promise anything than to promise too much and fail", and serves as a reminder of the natural and rightful restrictions that serve a greater good.

Eihwaz is the immovable object standing against all irresistable forces.

Magically it can be a rune of wisdom when invoked in accessing the mysteries of Yggdrasil. In mythology, Yggdrasil is the tree from which Odin hung to obtain the answers to the mysteries of the runes. This means Eihwaz can be worked to obtain understanding of all mysteries.

In divination it can reflect stamina and survival and may be represented by any of the following forces.

EIHWAZ UPRIGHT:Survival, strength, reliability, dependability, trustworthiness, enlightenment, endurance, defense, protection, secret or sacred knowledge

EIHWAZ MERKSTAVE: Confusion, destruction, dissatisfaction, weakness, vulnerability, untrustworthiness, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, ignorance

In modern systems of runic divination, the Eihwaz rune usually symbolizes death.  


If we turn the rune on its head and look solely at its negative aspects, we can see that they all fit LV to a tee.  

Confusion, destruction, dissatisfaction - LV destroys everything he comes into contact with, because he is consumed by hate.  Weakness, untrustworthiness, vulnerability, ignorance - he has all of these in spades, and is too blind to realise it.

He has chosen to bend magical life-giving forces to his own twisted search for immortality; he has tried to defend his mortal soul by splitting it into seven pieces and encasing it inside seven Horcruxes, and in this quest he is doomed to fail.  Ultimately, he will "snatch defeat from the jaws of victory" because of his over-confidence and assumption that he cannot be vanquished.
~Gidg~
Yes, this was my take on it as well. When I started researching this rune, I was shocked at how indicative it was to LV.
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