There is another topic about prophecy but it is about "wording carefully".

I want to bring your attention to the fact that is in my opinion overlooked.

Jo tried to convince us that there are no such thing as prophecy without someone who should act and make it happen.
But there was at least one prophecy that fulfilled without any special action - I am talking about the second Trelawney's prediction.
Harry never acted on that prophecy because he completely forgot about it untill later. So, why not, the first Trlawney's prophecy is the "real one" too, I mean the one that doesn't have to have a human action to fulfill itself?

However, we know that LV acted on the that prophecy. I want to wenture an idea that because of LV's actions there are two things that going on simultaneously. First, there is a Harry Potter story that was set up by LV's actions, and there is Neville's story that was set up by fate so to say.
I believe that we will learn that the first prophecy is the real one too. But how are we going to know that if Harry Potter is the chosen one? We can know that only if Neville is indeed the one. Harry is fighting VL because his heart tells him so, but Neville will be the one that will bring VL down. I think Harry will destroy all the horcruxes and Neville will finish LV.

Neville is just too special for the plot to be wasted. He will come to play his part. My prediction is that Neville is the chossen one, maybe I will be wrong but it would made a very beautiful ending, quite in line with what Jo was saying - Harry was fighting LV because of his choice, but it doesn't mean real prophecies don't exist.

LV marked Harry as his equal by atacking the Potter's house. The prophecy states that the Dark Lord must mark the wizard as his equal. By trying to kill Harry LV has marked him as his equal. Neville was just another option as his parents had also defied LV thrice as did the Potter's. Therefore HP is the Chosen One becasue LV made it so.

There is no way that after this incredible story of 6 books and during the middle/end of the seventh one will one of the secondary characters (Neville) show up and save the day. LV marked Harry as his equal, he has to complete the prophecy.

The part of the prophecy says "neither can live while the other survices" it really doesn't say that Harry himself has to be the one who actually kills him. Now that we know about the horcruxes, Harry can be the one who destroyes all the horcruxex and weakness Voldemort and maybe he dies doing it, then Neville is the one who kills Voldemort. Neville is not in the books for nothing, we don't know about him being the one that Voldemort could have chosen for nothing and we don't know about his parents being tortured by Death Eaters for nothing.

You are forgetting the part of the prophecy right before the part you quoted - "...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives..."

IMO, this states pretty clearly that either LV must die at the hands of Harry, or that Harry must die at the hands of LV. Period.

IF LV had gone to Neville's first and IF Neville's mom had made a sacrifice like Lily, and IF Neville had survived an AK from LV, then Neville would be in Harry's shoes and the prophecy would apply to him. However, since LV "chose" Harry, and "marked him as his equal", then it MUST be Harry that kills LV or is killed by LV.

JKR has kind of answered this question on her website. If you go to the FAQ section, 1st page, very bottom of the page, she answers the poll question, "What is the significance of Neville being the other boy to whom the prophecy might have referred?" In it, she states that Harry is, indeed, the one to whom the prophecy refers, because LV chose him to be so, and not Neville. So, Neville is NOT the Chosen One.

She does, however, state that this "shouldn't be taken to mean that Neville does not have a significant part to play in the last two novels, or the fight against Lord Voldemort." So I definitely expect Neville to play a huge role in helping to destroy LV, but I don't believe that, after 6 novels of building Harry up as the Chosen One, she will let that drop and have someone else come in and save the day. Not Snape, not Neville, not someone else. (Though I'm not sure Harry will actually kill LV; I believe LV will turn out to be the means of his own destruction. He's certainly been his own worst enemy so far .)

"Neither must die while the other survices " part says nothing about Harry. So, can't agree on that argument.

And the part about "marking as an equal" doesn't mean that Nevill still can't be marked by LV somehow. The prophecy doesn't say when the One shall be marked. May be he will be marked when he defeats the LV.

I think it is jus suspicious that Jo spends 6 books convincing us that prophets actually don't work on their own and then gives us just that (2nd Trelawney's prophecy). I think Neville being the "almost chosen one" will come into play. If Neville finally defeats LV, it doesn't mean 7 books were for nothing. Harry has saved the world so many times before and he will most likely dedstroy all the horcruxes without which LV can't be defeated.



I totally agree, Jo said that on her website. But could it be not that straightforward? Was it really true that neither of the boys was pre-selected, was it really true that either did have a chance of being the chosen one? Why did Jo put Neville on Harry's place couple of times in the book? First time when Harry uses Neville's name on the Knight Bus and second time when Harry dreams about Neville having to play Quidditch for him.

merged by LL mod You_won't_know_who

I think she was just trying to put Neville in our minds, to wonder if there was something important about Neville that we didn't know yet. But she then answered that at the end of OotP, when we learned that he was the might-have-been Chosen One.

As to it being straightfoward, I do think that JKR is saying that, in her universe, neither boy was preordained to be the Chosen One; that choice was Voldemort's:


Since she provided this question as a possible poll question, I don't think she intended to mislead us, or tell us a falsehood, when she answered it, if it was the one selected.

As for Trelawney seeing "[THE DARK LORD'S] SERVENT WILL BREAK FREE AND SET OUT TO REJOIN HIS MASTER," I think this may have been more a prediction of what would happen, as opposed to a prophecy, which is more of what can happen. At least, I think that might be a distinction that JKR might make. (And before anyone says anything, yes, I know that in the dictionary, these two terms, "prophecy" and "prediction," are synonymous, but I think JKR has already redefined "prophecy" for her universe, so, again, I think she might consider Trelawney's two "prophecies" to be different in nature. Just a guess, but that's my opinion .)

Prophecy quoted in full for reference...





Yes it does, just not by name. The prophesy specifically states The one..., ...will mark him..., ...but he will......all are singular references, not plural. The line ...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal... refers to The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord. Who did the Dark Lord mark as his equal? Harry, of course.
It (the prophecy) could have referred to either Harry OR Neville as being "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord", and since LV went after Harry, at that point, the prophecy refers ONLY to Harry.



I think in that case, the prophecy would have said something like "And the Dark Lord will later mark another as his equal..." with all the attendant pluralities involved with that. However, like I said above, it only speaks of the singular, and LV has already marked his equal - Harry.



She never says prophecies don't work. What she has said was that if the first prophecy had never been heard, it MAY not have come to be. LV only went after Harry BECAUSE he heard the prophecy. He ACTED upon the (incomplete) information he had been given, and therefore MADE the prophecy come true. It would most likely have worked if he had chosen Neville over Harry, but since he chose Harry, Harry is "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord..." On the other hand, if LV HADN'T heard the prophecy, it MAY still have come true, just through different means.

This sort of situation occurs a lot in literature in which prophecies appear. There are several stories where the very act of trying to avoid a prophecy actually ended up making it come true...like LV. From what I can tell, it is rare for these prophecies to NOT come true. It all comes back to what Dumbledore said about choices. LV CHOSE to act on the prophecy, he CHOSE to go after Harry first, he CHOSE the one who will vanquish him by marking him as his equal. The thing about prophecies (at least in literature) is that no matter what anyone does, or even if they do nothing at all, they usually come true, and usually with some ironic lesson about it. Just like in the HP books - LV hears the prophecy and basically begins his own downfall by trying to prevent it.

I'm not saying that Neville's role in the last book won't be big. I happen to think that he will play a very important role. I just don't think he's the one who will take down LV...that is Harry's job. That's basically what the entire series is about - getting Harry to the point where he can finally defeat LV.

I really like that thought. Voldemort as his own worst enemy. You have a wonderful point there! Personally I do think Neville will have a very important part in the last book. I feel one of the things he will accomplish is bringing down Belatrix LaStrange. I think it would be just and deserved, if he were to be the one to do that, myself. Neville has come a long way, as has Harry, and I think that would be the icing on the cake. I also think he will be the one to wind up as a teacher at Hogwarts. Maybe even Headmaster someday! Wouldn't that be cool?

Smiles!

Once again this will appear to be a double post, so my apologies.

What if... What if Voldemort had intended on going after both boys? What if he had gone after Harry first, with the intention of going after Neville next, to make double sure he got the right boy, but because of the prtection Lily gave Harry, the AK backfired, marking Harry, and turning Voldemort into Vapormort before he had a chance to complete his mission?

Thoughts anyone? I know it has never been mentioned before as a possibility, even in the books, but the thought just occured to me, and I thought I would throw it out there.

Thanks!

Actually, that thought HAS been mentioned before, and I'm pretty sure that it was probably Voldemort's intention. He DOES like to make sure all bases are covered, even though his track record on that is pretty dismal (for all we know, he may not have yet created his final Horcrux, again trying to use Harry's death to make it). It would be interesting to see how the story would go if Voldy had gone after Neville first. A couple different outcomes come to mind on that:

1. We'd all be reading the "Neville Longbottom and the..." series of books.
2. Neville would have been AK'd, Voldy would move on to Harry, and we'd have one less likeable character to theorize about.

Hmmm...I like this idea and think that it might be right but if it is why hasn't Voldemort been trying to kill Neville all these years like he has Harry?

I have a friend who thinks that Harry and Neville are related and somehow they will conquer The Dark Lord together because of this. What do you think of this? I'm not too sure myself. I think she got the idea from the Black Family Tree.

I think that Dumbledore had said that LV chose the one, who was most like him. The one he felt more threatend by. I like the idea that a possablity of LV going after Neville as well, but I think Dumbledore explained why he didnt in GOF.
Sorry if I dont make sence, but I do think Neville has more to play in the book, but not with LV, I think more with Bellitrix.
Just my 2 cents

I agree. I think Neville will be responsible for Bellatrix's death or capture.

Yeah, that would actually be a very poetic parallel to Harry's story. Harry feels bound and determined to go after LV, not just because of the prophecy, not just because LV is the Darkest Wizard of the generation, but because LV was responsible for his parents' death. Paralleling that is Neville, who may very well feel a determination to go after Bellatrix (and maybe Rudolphus, too - that is her husband's name, isn't it?) for destroying the minds of his parents. I definitely think he needs to be their undoing in some way, to have closure to his story.

And I think it very likely that LV may have intended to go after Neville after he dealt with Harry. I think he chose to go after Harry first, because, as DD said, he chose the one most like him, and probably thought Harry was the most likely candidate for the person the prophecy was referring to. But after his defeat at baby Harry's hands (sort of), I believe he felt that confirmed that the prophecy was referring to Harry, and so let go of the notion that Neville might be a danger to him. Hence the reason he has never gone after Neville.

I have to agree with you there. That is the most likely explanation. I believe he originally intended to go after both boys, but after his disasterous confrontation with Harry, he decided he didn't have to look any further for the threat.

I also agree that Neville will go after Bellatrix. You have her husband's name correct (I looked it up), but the spelling was off (no big deal there) Rodolphus wasn't in on the torture of Neville's parents, though. At least not the way I read it. It could be Neville would have to take on both of them anyway, as Rodolphus would likely come to her aid. Then again, who knows?

Smiles!

Neville being the chosen one certainly was an idea that occured to me. But I dunno. It would be a great twist to the story. However, I don't think it will happen. Or at least I hope it doesn't, because the truth is I would feel kinda disappointed, having followed Harry all this time only for Neville to fufill his apparent destiny.

I do hope however, as you all have been saying, that Neville has a chance to be involved in capturing Bellatrix. I hope he doesn't kill her though, which I think is a distinct possibility.

question... why exactly did the Lestranges go after the Longbottoms? I mean, yes I know war blah blah blah but to attack in a home in front of family there had to be a reason behind it. If the Potters were put into hiding because of the prophecy why not the Longbottoms? Or was the another reason they were in hiding... okay wrong subject...

what was the reason for the Lestranges et al to go to the Longbottoms? And they didn't go after Neville just the parents. I don't put it past them to kill a child. Or did they go after them, after Volde was destroyed? for retribution? Just curious...

As for Neville - no I don't think he is the chosen one... this is an epic heroes journey which normally means that the hero (harry) goes it alone at the end while his friends do their own thing. But I do think he will be there in the book and be pivitol to the story line.

Anyone notice in HBP at the end when they were in the infirmry is states that "Neville was apparently asleep in his bed" I find the use of apparently to be an odd choice of words. I don't think he is asleep and I won't be surprised if he shows up at the Weasley wedding to talk to Harry. I think Neville needs to know about the propechy as well.

Sorry.......pressed wronge key.. I too think LV would have gone after Neville when he had finished with Harry, just to cover all bases, even though he chose Harry as The one most likely to challenge him. I think Neville will have a more important role in the next book. (Especialy if he gets rid of Bellatrix)

Neville is strong and brave and he will be there to fight along side with Harry and the others. I think that what Neville has shown us would make his parents proud.



I would like to know that answer too. We know Voldemort wanted the Longbottoms just as much as he wanted the Potters. The only thing I can think is that they were getting ready to go into hiding when Voldemort fell and the Death Eaters came blasting the door open.

I think that the Longbottoms were in hiding, but emerged after LV disappeared. Everyone thought that they were safe (remember the celebrations and toasting to "the boy who lived", 1st chapter, PS/SS). The Lestranges went after the Longbottoms because they thought that, as aurors, they knew where LV was.

If LV had gone after Neville first, instead of Harry, and Neville's mother had sacrificed herself, as did Lily, then Neville might have been 'the chosen one'. As it is, Harry is 'the chosen one' of the prophecy, but Neville will definately be there to help.

but why the longbottoms - there were other aurors out there. Other order members and heck they could of used Peter still because no one suspected him except for Sirius...

Doesn't the book say Neville remembers his parents being tortured or isn't a subconsicous memory for him?

Voldemort can't have picked the wrong boy, because by nature the boy he picked was 'the chosen one'. And besides, the prophecy was not just an account of what some special boy would be able to do - it predicted that Voldemort would pick the boy with the power to destroy him. Voldemort picked the boy. Give the prophecy a pat on the back (or not, because in a complicated way it also influenced the decision).

I think the fact that Neville was the unchosen boy - and was destined to be the unchosen boy - doesn't stop him from being a worthwhile character. He's not interesting just because, oops, everybody made a mistake and he's 'the one' after all. His bravery and tragedy doesn't have to be justified with hidden glory (though I hope he'll get glory of some kind in the end, I really do).



They might have just been confused and angry about how Voldemort was temporarily disembodied. It wouldn't have been a huge stretch to assume that the other family might have been responsible for or known something more about Voldemort's downfall at the Potters.

It could also be because Frank was an Auror. He might have put mates of theirs behind bars.

yeah ok, but that is a really good question. why did the lestranges go after the longbottoms? maybe because the DE knew about the first part of hte prophecy so maybe they thought that the other couple knew about lv's whereabouts, like if what happened at godric's hollow was a trap. but u know, deseperate people do desperate things... so they probably just hurried over the other two, because as DD had said many times LV wouldnt tell his DE everything, they might have not known about who he had chosen to go after...

Actually, I can't remember which book, but I believe Dumbledore answers why the Longbottoms were attacked. He says they were attacked 2 weeks after LV's downfall, and the DE attacked them because the DE believed the Longbottoms knew where LV was hiding after the attack.

YES!!!! i am so glad i found this thread....i understand that the prophecy states that the dark lord will mark him as his equal and neville was never "marked" and dumbledore explains to harry in HBP that he has to chose to fulfill the prophcey....but i have to say that neville has much to say before the last chapter is done....neville is a pure blood coming from a strong wizarding family and even tho he can be clumsy and forgetful he is maturing and growing and i believe neville will play a large role in the downfall of the darklord

Quote: I have a friend who thinks that Harry and Neville are related and somehow they will conquer The Dark Lord together because of this. What do you think of this? I'm not too sure myself. I think she got the idea from the Black Family Tree.


_ _______________________________________
Yes Harry and Neville ARE related. JK Rowling said.
James Potters father was called Charles Potter and he had a sister.
And she married a longbottom. and then he had Frank etc.
It was in the Leaky Cauldron news yonks ago.

Ok, this thread is about Neville being the chosen one.
There is one thing that I find suspicious. Dombledore convinces Harry that it doesn't matter whether there was a prophecy or not.
DD says that Harry would fight LV without any prophecy just because of the goodness of his heart. Doesn't it sounds a bit strange?
Looks like Trelawney can indeed make a real prediction and the one about a boy and LV definited seems to be real. Dombledore doesn't say to Harry that "you know what, you are the one who will be able to do it, that is why you should try" but he tries to appeal to Harry's emotions and inner goodness.

Before you go further into theorizing please, read this very interesting topic about the wording of the prophecy - I hope it will help you a little.

Some many question marks about the true prophecy and the ending of the series. I'd rather just wait it out and see what JKR has in store. Personally I know Harry is the chosen one. (whether I'm wrong or right is another story). I'm going to go have a drink of butter beer now

Didn't Jo say specificaly on her website that Neville is not the chosen one and that the prophecy is not about him? Off to check this out.

I was just about to say the same!!
hehehe
I am sure I've read it somewhere! Going to Lexicon!

Edited: here it is: http://www.madamscoop.org/themes/neville.htm




and from Jk's website: http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/faq_view.cfm?id=84



so, for that, Neville cannot be the choosen one, but he can play a very important role, and I won't doubt he will!

I know, it can be very well that everyone is right and I am wrong about Neville being that chosen one.
I jsut wanted to make a point that there is still the logical possibility of that prophecy was referring to Neville.
Nothing that Jo said about Harry, Neville and the prophecy contradicts the fact that Neville still can be the chosen one.
He still can me marked by the LV (who told that Harry's mark is the "right one"), he still can discover powers LV knows not, and he still can become the one who causes LV to finally die. I don't know what Jo has decided. Maybe Neville is just going always be " a possibility". What I want to say is that Neville-the chosen one is a still feasible outcome and the one that would make interesting and beautiful in my opinion.

Helga,
Hello!

Neville can't be the chosen one, just because he didn't have scar, or a window to Lv's mind you see? From the statement I've copied here, there's no way of him being the chosen one, but that doesn't imply he will not be important in the end or do something great!!! On the contrary, I think Neville willl be very very very important and he's one of my favorite characters but he's not the one, and I cannot say I'm very happy about it. I just couldn't bare the idea of seen him suffer more than he already did!!!

It is very interesting, Mafalda, that you think that Neville has been through a lot. I think Harry has been having much worse time.
Every one hates him for being famous, people always suspect him in being Slitherin's heir, lier, disturbed maniac etc etc, and he has to endure all those battles with LV all those years and his scar hurts all the time.
I actyally pity Harry every time I read a book. People are cruel to him. Neville on the other hand is at least is left in peas in shadow. I don't see how the idea of Neville being the one makes him suffer more, sorry:).

ahh I see your point. Still, I think Neville suffered a lot more. I think Neville had to see his parents on that awful state, totally insane and to live with that, without telling anyone what he was suffering. His family believed he had no talent at all and when I think about him, I think about Merope a bit. It's clear that his family was better then the Gaunt's but he was in constant comparison to his father and grandpa. His grandma doesn't seem to me as a very lovely person and I think that Neville had a very unhappy childhood, if you read carefully his comments. I'm not saying Harry didn' t have a sad story, but Neville was always considered the zero on his family, and he knew the had to achieve better things because his father and mom were better... Harry didn't have that. He was not conscient of it until coming to wizarding world. He suffered with his relatives, yes, btu he was not concient of why. When he learned that his aunt "disliked" him because of his origen, I think all made sens to him. Neville, on the other side, was supposed to take his father's place... that was what his grandma wanted for him. I think Neville suffered a lot more from inside than Harry.

nope- it's harry whos gotta fight the battle- the 6 books have been about harry and i dont think jk rowling is going to let neville fight the big bang battle as harry drinks his coffee in his chair- i do think neville is going to battle but not as the main juice of the huge battle (harry vs. voldermort) anyways, the books are called harry potter- right?

I don't believe Harry's scar is what the prophesy is referring to when it says voldy will "mark [the chosen one] as his equal". The mark that the prophesy is referring to is a much deeper one, and it proves to be a necessary element for the prophesy to be fulfilled. The true mark that voldemort placed on harry when he was a tiny baby was the very act of murdering his parents thus setting the stage for the prophesy to be fulfilled. Harry is not hunting down voldemort because the prophesy says he will; harry is hunting down voldemort b/c voldemort murdered his parents and continues to threaten the lives of the people that harry loves. the scar is only a physical reminder of the curse that failed to kill harry. I mention this b/c i find it very interesting that harry is not the only boy marked in the way that i previously mentioned and the way that i believe that the prophesy intends. There is another boy who lost his parents because of voldemort who also carries a mark deep inside of him that will not allow him to rest until voldemort is gone. I'm not saying that Neville is the "chosen one" b/c i believe that the books make it quite apparent that this is Harry's story, but i do believe that neville fits the terms of the prophesy quite well and whether the prophesy is referring to him directly or not, he will play a part in voldemort's downfall if he can.

I have a really strong feeling that Neville is (at a pivotal moment) going to prove to be more important than just 'the other boy that could have been chosen'.

There is something going on there that OF COURSE Ms. Rowling is holding out on us.

tellmetellmetellmetellmetellme.....I don't do well with waiting....tellmetellmetellmetellme

I have recently faced one strong objection to the theory that Neville is the chosen one.
The fact that Harry was able to lift the orb with the prophecy from the shelf at the Ministry. If he was not the one ebout whom the prophecy was made than how could he take it without suffering?

My guess here lies in the Harry is the Horcrux theory, if there is indeed a small part of LV's soul in Harry then he could touch the prophecy not as Harry but as LV.

By the way, the only other person who has a chance to hold the infamous orb is Neville. Is that a coincidence? Or is it a hint?

but i think that if neville tryed to lift the prophecy he would of been able to because it was named after harry lived. i think either of them could have been the choosen one but LV chose the potters.

So the issue then is whether the one who is on the lable can lift it or whether the one who was truly meant by the prophecy can lift it.

Maybe this has been covered, my apologies if it has, but was ever mention in OOtP if only the people that the prophecy is about are able to hold the prophecy? Wasn't Neville the only other person besides Harry that held the prophecy that night?

Yes, but only to pick it up as the DE didn't seem to bothered with the fact that they would have to hold the Prophecy as well. Harry and Voldemort were the only ones allowed to take it from the shelf, I think that's how they guard the orbs by having protective spells to only allow those it pretains to, pick the Prophecy up.

From a literary point of view, I don't think it would be in any way "good writing" to spend 6 books concentrating on one character, and building another up as almost "comic relief" (although admittedly Neville has grown a lot in the last two books) only to turn around at the end and say "actually it was the other one you should have been watching".

And since JKR says that Neville isn't the Chosen One, doesn't that pretty definitively say that he isn't? I know JKR sometimes "misleads" or doesn't tell the whole truth, but she has never out and out lied about something - it's just something she wouldn't do!

I agree with Gareth. It is not very Rowling like to set up and then turn it around. Besides- Voldemort choose. The choice has been made, there is no undoing it.

Dumbledore says only those about whom the prophecy is made can retrieve it. After hearing the prophecy, we see that it did indeed concern Harry; thus, Harry was able to retieve the prophecy. Had the prophecy not been about Harry he would have instantly been addled much like Bode in OOTP. It actually if LV had known more about the prophecy would have been a clever way of figuring out which boy was the threat to him. Had Neville been able to retieve the prophecy; it certainly would have made things more interesting for us and perhaps for Voldemort as well.

Please check out the extra stuff section of www.jkrowling.com where she clearly dismisses the idea of Neville as the genuine "chosen one". I can not explain it better than the author of the series herself.

I agree that Neville is not the true "Chosen One". I just can't help but wonder if Neville will figure in to the completion of the prophecy in some way. It seems in evitable to me that he will learn at some point how close he was to being "marked as his equal". And yes, Jo has used Neville as comic relief throughout the series, but, I think that this may set the reader up to underestimate him. I think he may have as yet unfulfilled potential.

I don't know why people think that Jo "said" or "meant" on her wewb-site that Neville is clearly not the chosen one.
If you read it carefully, she uses her words so that there is nothing that directly says that Neville IS NOT the one.
Just go ahead and read it again. She could simply say "Neville is not the one, end of story" as she said about sorting hat that is wasn't a horcrux. But she goes and writes a long explanation.

I am not arguing that her explanation means that Neville indeed is the one, what I am saying is that Jo's explanation on her web-site leaves oppen the POSSIBILITY for him to be.