I am sure someone else has asked this but here goes.

Why at the end of HBP is Harry so confident that if he runs into Snape in his search for the horcuxes it will be bad/unlucky for Snape and lucky for Harry.

Not many pages before this Snap shows how easily he can deal with Harry and toys with him. Did I miss something here??

Yes, you missed the point that Harry is overconfident in most chapters of the books. He thinks everytime he is right and everybody who questions his believes is wrong (Hermione, Ron and the other kids to start with and ending with DD being wrong). Sometimes Harry is right, but when it comes to Snape (and to a lesser decree, Malfoy) Harry is wrong. Maybe that has something to do with James and Severus?!

Another point to consider, though, is that Severus had teached Harry a virtual priceless last lesson: keep your mouth shut and your mind protected. If Harry is able to do that (which I doubt), maybe he has a chance. Otherwise an evil Severus would wipe the floor with him (but I doubt JKR writing that, even if she has to write unbelievable stuff to prevent it).

As an afterthought: it might be a shadow of what will happen. Severus "redeeming" (what a wrong word, since he always was good and has no need to redeem himself) himself with dying a hero´s death to safe Potter would certainly be bad for Snape and lucky for Harry, wouldn´t it?

No i realise Harry is generally over confident, which can be described as brave, and if Harry does not yet realise that the non verbals are the way to go and that he is a woeful occlumens then chapter one of book 7 should be the demise of the chosen one!

It just strikes me as utterly bizarre that Harry had this duel with Snape who was able to block and pre-empt every move Harry made (possible ligilimens going on) and a few days later he is once again blissfully ignorant of the fact that magically he has just been disgraced.

Harry often doesn't think about his abilities as a Wizard when he thinks of going after them. He physically attacked Sirius in the Shrieking Shack, after he was disarmed of his wand. He went to the DoM, fully expecting to see LV (with Sirius), and fully thought he'd be able to save Sirius from him. He chased after Bellatrix, and he chased after Snape.

But I think we may give Harry too little credit. While he is not as strong as many of the wizards he's faced, he still has held his own. He was able to fend off hundreds of dementors around the lake in PoA. He was able to fight many DEs in the DoM (with the help of his friends, of course), DEs with far more experience than he had. He was able to duel with Bellatrix in the atrium of the MoM for several minutes before LV, and then DD, showed up in OotP. And he was able to fight his way out of the castle to continue his pursuit of Snape in HBP. He's certainly not an expert at dueling, and if faced with a "fair" fight with an evil Snape, would almost certainly lose. But I don't think he's considering dueling with Snape, but fighting him in much the same way he did the DEs in the DoM.

Either way, Harry definitely shows a tendency towards overconfidence, but he's not completely useless when it comes to fighting the enemy, and he knows it.

Whenever Harry starts in with his "I hate Snape, he's bad because he's mean" stuff, I think back to the end of OoTP.

DD has explained that Severus saw Harry, Hermione and Umbridge go into the forest and he informed the Order of what was going on after waiting to see if they came out.

Harry himself states that he didn't care what anyone said about Snape, it was easier to just blame him for Sirius' death.

He is still, underneath it all, a teenager

On the other hand he has at least twice said to DD that he DOESN'T have the powers to destroy V, that he's not a good enough wizard to fight him. So he's not confident all the time. I think part of the reason that he's only average in lessions is a lack of confidence. He just has a lot of passion and when he's angry that's how he reacts.

I don't believe Harry is over confident and to be fair he was right about draco and he was right when he said that snape was trying to help him and you can't blame harry for getting agitated when people don't believe him because he has to constantly fight to be heard and taken seriously when he makes statements he believes to be true. OTP shows us how little respect harry was shown when he tried to tell everyone that LV was back and again in HBP when he repeatedly tells hermione, ron mr weasley lupin and DD about draco and once again he's shot down even though he's right (again.) I believe snape is good and I believe he tried to give harry excellent advice about NV spells and closing his mind because snape is right until harry can do these things he's not ready to take on the DL.

But this time Harry was right!! (Malfoy as deatheater theory, helping them, and Snape trying to help Malfoy) It appears right now that he was also right about Snape being evil, but we're still not sure if Snape is good or evil. (We all have our theories!!! )

I wouldn't decribe Harry as being over confident. But sometimes he rushes into situations with out really thinking. Does this work? Most of the time. Is Harry always right? Absolutely not.

I don't expect Harry to do anything but jump to conclusions when it comes to Snape. Harry's a teenager who has been treated poorly, judged and badgered by an adult. Yes, Harry should have trusted Dumbledore, but I personally find it difficult to trust someone's opinion - even someone I admire and love - when my own personal experience is so different. And imagine Harry, who has been treated awfully by his only parental figures, of course he's going to depend on himself rather than what other adults tell him to believe.
Harry's over confidence is part of what will help him to survive to destroy the horcruxes and Voldemort. If he didn't have it he would crawl under his bed and hide rather than going on the quest he is about to set out upon.

Perhaps what you perceive as over confidence is a new resolve. He had a very difficult reality check when Snape put it to him....he learned the hard way why non-verbal spells and occlumency were so important. Maybe he has now realized what he must do in order to survive, is determined to master the skills and does feel confident he can win. Would we want it otherwise?

I've often asked myself why, if Snape is evil, he didn't cast spells that could have hurt Harry more. LV wants the supposed pleasure of killing Harry, but that didn't prevent Snape from causing him a lot more pain. Why did he taunt Harry about the closing his mind and mouth? It would be to his, Snapes, advantage if he didn't.

I think what is seen as over-confidence is the signal that Harry is becoming a man, quite a different character in the next book than we have seen in the others. JKR said, in her interview last year: "....(Harry) in the course of previous six books has amassed more knowledge than he realizes. That's all I am going to say...."

He knows what he must do, he has bungled some things and excelled in others and now has a clear vision of has become his destiny. The confidence he is gaining is not the reckless confidence of youth.

I have never ever thought of Harry as over confident; I can think of a few words to describe him better than over confident. Reckless, foolish, impatient, stubborn etc. I have always felt that Harry knows when to show his nerves and when to show his confidence. That is one of his strengths. He certainly hasn't been confident and at the same time he has been confident at times during Quidditch, exams, his times he faced Voldemort/DE, the Cave. I really don't find him an over confident person.

In the event that Snape isn't a true follower of Voldemort, it doesn't mean that Snape doesn't need redeeming. The best case that can be made for Snape is that he is no longer a Death Eater, and that he isn't completely evil. Still, his behavior has been undeniably rotten with regard to Harry for six full years. Just because he hasn't killed or seriously injured Harry in a physical way doesn't mean that he hasn't been a jerk. Harry has had the Dursleys to teach him that he isn't a pampered prince. Snape doesn't need to fulfill that role.

Snape has been attempting to puncture Harry's sense of self worth and self-confidence since the first day Harry sat in a potions class. Snape has been unfair in every sense of the word, even if he thinks he is doing what is best for Harry.

I don't think Harry is over confident at all. I think he is righteously angry with regard to Voldemort, and at least seemingly so with Snape. I believe that Harry's sense of being right propels him to act, when a sense of self protection should lead him to be more cautious. This, in my book, is a sense of doing what is right over what is easy.

In HBP, Slughorn tells Harry that he (Slughorn) is on the side of right, but the Slytherin in him will always lead him to protect himself first. Harry charges forward, trying to do what is right, despite overwhelming odds against him. So far, he has survived, due to a combination of luck, friends, and a wand that chose the right wizard.

Snape may have kicked Harry's tail at the close of HBP, but Harry's sense of righteous anger pushes him to a point where Horace Slughorn would have turned back. Harry is willing, and downright determined to go it alone, and do what is right. Ron and Hermione won't allow that, however, and will be at his side. I suspect that they will not be the only two people to do so. I suspect that Ginny, Neville, Seamus, the Order of the Phoenix, and many others may eventually help him. However, Harry must have the courage of his conviction to face Voldemort alone.

If he has the courage to face Voldemort, facing Snape must surely seem a less daunting task!

The ironic thing may be that Snape, his penultimate enemy, may save him at the loss of Snape's own life. Either way, it would be wrong, in my humble opinion, to say the force driving Harry is false confidence.

Harry may actually have more of a problem facing Snape tha LV. At the back of his mind will always play the 'he's a teacher/I know him/I've hated him for years' these will convey Harry into emotions of outright hate like when he was fighting Bellatrix at the MoM but as Bellatrix said 'rightous anger won't hurt me for long Harry'. Harry needs to focus himself which I believe he can do against LV but will have more of a problem doing it against Snape.



Harry is sometimes over-confident in some aspects but he is also woefully self-consious in other areas (dating/lessons - he has more talent than he shows) but we are just witnessing the normal rollercoaster ride that being a teenager invloves. I will be interesting to see how much Harry will have developed in the last book.

[/quote]I don't think Harry is over confident at all. I think he is righteously angry with regard to Voldemort, and at least seemingly so with Snape. I believe that Harry's sense of being right propels him to act, when a sense of self protection should lead him to be more cautious. This, in my book, is a sense of doing what is right over what is easy

While I agree Harry is angry and rightly so I find his statements more that someone setting out on a righteous agenda. We have all had to do things that are right but not easy, admittedly Harry's task is far greater, but you set yourself in a resolve, admit that it will be tough and get on with it. You do not normally make statements that you may not be able to live up to. Thats where I see Harry's false confidence. He knows he has to destroy the horcruxes but he has to throw in comments on how he will deal with snape. I mean Harry has faced Voldemort many times now and walked away while so many others have not, but anytime he has faced Snape he is unable to protect himself and seems to be at his mercy. Now if that was me I would think, right bring on Voldemort and i hope i can despatch him before i run into Snape.

Now I personnally think Harry is a very brave young man and i realise that JKR cannot truly depict in the books everything that Harry has learnt so i will be interested to see how Harry is to be developed into a confident powerful wizard.

Another of my theories is that Snape is a master of magic, we have seen that at Harry's age he was developing spells, and his potions skills seem to be second to none. He is also an extremley skilled Ligilimens and as he has a fundamental understanding knowledge of magic he knows that it is a combination of all his talents that gives him his power. This we see in his fight with Harry in HBP where he knows Harry was about to use Levicorpus. Now as for Tom Riddle he cannot access Harrys mind so easily due to the pain he feels and so is unable to read Harrys next move. He will have to rely on pure spells prowess to fight Harry. He may even use ligilimency to disable Harry long enough for one of his DE's to body bind harry or something so that Harry cannot fight back, though i doubt this as this would show that he needs help to defeat Harry. So as Dumbledore has told us time and time again Harry has powers the Dark lord does not and so he may be able to defeat Voldemort without being an exceptionally powerful wizard and the disappointing thing for me is i am expecting harry to become more powerful.

I am not convinced by you that Harry isn´t just overconfident at all. If we look at the history of his adventures, then we see that Harry always was convinced that he (and he alone) was right, and everybody who disagrees with him is wrong. He trusted his percievance of the world even more than Dumbledore´s. Harry also jumps at every opportunity to help people or show off. In PS instead of telling McG that someone got to the PS, he runs after the intruder (now that is actually one of the two opportunities that make sense to me), in CoS he and Ron decided that going themselves would be better than alerting McG and Flitwick of Lockhard´s stupidity (the second); in PoA, he ran after Sirius instead of alerting a teacher, in GoF nothing of that, but just because Barty Crouch and DD had a hand over him, still he tried to rescue people when not needed. OotP: Harry, instead of trying to notify Snape, breaks into Umbridge´s office and later on races to the MoM. HBP: he thinks he is alone is able to stop Draco from killing, he alone is able to stop Severus and several DE from escaping.
To me that seems pretty overconfident. Yes, he had times where he wasn´t confident at all (Snape´s classes, the Triwizard Tournament, Cho), but as soon as it matters, he is more confident than prudent.

It may be that I see and feel wrong in this regard (as I´d been in Slytherin for sure), but...
to Harry it has never occured that running headlong into Snape would be his doom, because Severus is more able than him. Harry still seems to think that righteous anger can overcome every obstacle (that´s wrong and was proven wrong by Severus in occlumancy lessons and Bella in the MoM), while he never thought of being coldhearted and coolheaded (which Severus tried to teach him in OotP, and in that chapter in HBP).

You see i dont see these things as over confindence. Harry has as i believe to be stated in one of the books, a saving the world complex. He is mixed up in some heavy stuff and i read a lot of his actions as bravery or even stupidity. It is some of the more subtle actions or statements that show harry's over confidence. As for your statement regarding HBP Harry tried and tried to get DD to help regarding Malfoy. I think DD knew exactly what was happening but did not wish to let Harry in on the surprise.

I don't think the reason why he sometimes does average in class has to do with lack of confidence, it has to do with lack of concentration. When his results are poor, it's mostly because he's thinking of something else. Quidditch, girls, fighting Voldemort.
And most of the time he is actually doing a lot better than average, I would say - at times only Hermione is doing better than him, and she is in a league of her own when it comes to school work - his grades, like we've seen them, are rather good - he can qualify to be an auror, for heaven's sake!
Defence against the dark arts is his best subject and the subject he's always concentrating on, and I think one of the reasons he feels safe when fighting evil is that he knows he can. Not that he thinks he can, he knows, and he is right.

When it comes to the subjects where his results are poor, like divination or history of magic, it's because he doesn't find them important. If he wanted to, he could do a lot better. (And yes, I know I'm sounding like somebody's mother right now, but concentration has a lot to do with results.)

Snape and Harry not getting along is all Snape's fault. He is the one who pasted jugdement on Harry when he walked through the doors of Hogwarts the first time. He compared him to James without even knowing him. Snape is a grown man and what happen to between him, James, and Sirius when they were in school should have nothing to do with Harry. If Snape is truly sorry for the murders of James and Lily and the attempt murder of a baby Harry he could show it more.

When Harry says "...and if I happen to meet Snape along the way" I think at that moment he just realize that he has to stand alone. He knows that he can't be proctected anymore he is not a baby. Now its time for him to be a man. It has become more real that saving the world from this luntic is really all on him.

Wasn't Dumbledore trying to teach Harry to have confidence in himself? So if Harry doesn't have confidence in himself, who will?

JKR stated this much when she wrote that Harry realised that his last and greatest protector was now gone and he was alone. This realisation would for me be an additional burden on the already daunting task ahead. It would not fill me with confidence that I could take whatever was coming. I'm sorry but i cannot see Harry's statement regarding Snape as anything else but false confidence in his own abilities.

I think JKR is trying to show us that Harry is not the "perfect superhero", but an ordinary person like the rest of us, who makes mistakes and is over-confident here and has a lack of confidence there. he is just an ordinary person with a huge burden on his shoulders, which of course makes him much less ordinary too. But Harry has always wanted to be an ordinary boy wizard, but I think he has finally realized that that is impossible. When he makes that comment about Snape, I think he's just saying ok, this is my task, I've got to accept it, and take things as they come. If he is going to worry about every little thing that can happen, he will probably be a nervous wreck before he has even started the journey. But I'm sure that Harry is really going to worry in book 7 all the same, like he has done so many times before. As I said, he is only human.

Hmmm well, i agree with the statement that Harry can really hold his own.
He can sometimes be overconfident but this was not the case with snape.

IT WAS AAAAAAAAANGER!

Imagine hating a person so much that you dont care if you die as long as you can cause them a little pain before you die.

I mean, i didnt blame Harry for chasing snape, or bellatrix. They both killed people that Harry loved.

I think anger motivated him. Anger caused from the intense love hes filled with.

Harry has faced insurmountable odds in the past and lived to tell the tale. (best example, facing Voldemort at the end of GoF and escaping) Yes, his statement can sound a bit like over-confidence, but by the next book who knows what Harry will be able to accomplish? Great things, is my bet. This is the final book, Harry will prove to be the hero that so many have called him since he was one and didn't deserve the title. Harry is going after the most evil wizard of their age- don't you think that's a bit of overconfidence? Snape is just one of Voldemort's lackeys, why should facing him be a more daunting task for Harry? Personally, I think Harry stands a huge chance against Snape, because he has something that Snape lacks, heart. If there is a Harry/Snape standoff in book seven, I’d put my money on Harry.

[quote name='Carthagian' date='Aug 4 2006, 05:08 PM' post='903634']
[/quote]

Now I personnally think Harry is a very brave young man and i realise that JKR cannot truly depict in the books everything that Harry has learnt so i will be interested to see how Harry is to be developed into a confident powerful wizard.

Another of my theories is that Snape is a master of magic, we have seen that at Harry's age he was developing spells, and his potions skills seem to be second to none. He is also an extremley skilled Ligilimens and as he has a fundamental understanding knowledge of magic he knows that it is a combination of all his talents that gives him his power. This we see in his fight with Harry in HBP where he knows Harry was about to use Levicorpus. Now as for Tom Riddle he cannot access Harrys mind so easily due to the pain he feels and so is unable to read Harrys next move. He will have to rely on pure spells prowess to fight Harry. He may even use ligilimency to disable Harry long enough for one of his DE's to body bind harry or something so that Harry cannot fight back, though i doubt this as this would show that he needs help to defeat Harry. So as Dumbledore has told us time and time again Harry has powers the Dark lord does not and so he may be able to defeat Voldemort without being an exceptionally powerful wizard and the disappointing thing for me is i am expecting harry to become more powerful.
[/quote]

DD has tried to show Harry what his power against Voldemort is. This power affords harry some protection against voldemort but against another powerful, possibly non evil, wizard Harrys power means nothing. As i stated in my previous post [quoted] I can seriously see harry being depicted as mediocure amongst powerful wizards but the purity of his soul gives him the weapons to dispense with Voldemort.

As for saying Snape has no heart, I dont believe that for a second. Whether he is good or bad his actions can only be completed by having heart in his mission. No i think the Half blood prince (not a good name to go by being voldemorts servant) has a lot of heart, he just doesnt "wear it on his sleeve" like others do.

Why does this necessarily mean that Harry won't become a great wizard. I think he will.

This alone does not mean Harry will not become a great wizard. As i have stated I hope he becomes more powerful as I think it would make the book more interesting. However I can see the story line going down the road where Harry's power is only strong against voldemort. As I have stated in previous posts if harry was to go one on one with another powerful dark wizard, at the minute he would not stand a chance.

If we consider how Harry has eluded Voldemort we can see that it is mainly the protection afforded by others, luck and indeed voldemort himself that has saved Harry. If Voldemort had not attacked Harry as a baby he would have been able to dispose of Harry at his leisure.

This is a great post. I think Harry's overwelming bravery overshadows the fact that he isn't always confident in what he does. I consider Harry to be an underachiver. He doesn't have the motivation in every subject like Hermione, and like LilyB stated he still qualifies to pursue a career as an auror. The one subject he puts his full attention to and the one class he always does better at than Hermione is DADA. The class he works the hardest in. Harry has the potential to be a very powerful wizard. I think he gets into trouble because he reacts without thinking. Emotion gets the best of him. He needs to step back think and use what he has learned magically. His so called overconfidence with Snape is his reaction to the lost of his greatest mentor and protector at the hands of someone who he has been at odds with. The fact that Snape clearly bested him is not a sign of weakness or lack of power. It is a lack of experience and self control. Think about it Harry has been exposed to the magical world for only six years. Snape has been living in magic world and learning magic for what 50 or 60 years. Even most of his classmates have more experience with magic. This is no contest. Snape intentionally or not taught Harry a great lesson during that duel at the end of HBP. Close your mouth and your mind. Harry has been taught how to do this he just needs to realize how important it is and put the work into perfecting it. I think we can expect great things from Harry. He hasen't even figured out his greatest power yet.

I hope it's just Harry, Ron, and Hermione. I mean... Seamus? He's a nobody.

I think the statement about Snape had more to do with anger and resolve than overconfidence!And through all the books,Harry goes to battle knowing very well it could be the last thing he ever did-that does NOT show overconfidence!And HArry himself HAS expressed his fear that he is NOT capable enough to fight LV!He is extremely courageous,he has great nerves-but he ALWAYS has been in ALONE in the final face-off-in PS,in CoS,in PoA,in GoF,not in OOTPor HBP,but he has done a LOT more than most people give him credit for!

I honestly just think that Harry was really angry at that moment in time and said something he really couldn't hold a candle to.

I've had people anger me in the past and have said something akin to "If I meet him along the way, I am going to kill him" without really meaning it or thinking I could do so.

I am not so sure that it is overconfidence that is speaking, so much as anger.

I also think that if Harry ever meets Snape again, it will most likely be a yelling match, where we may find out a little more Snape's past. Who knows.

I just have always thought that Snape doesn't have it in him to kill Harry, or even physically hurt him. And it seems rather obvious that Harry couldn't take on Snape. At least not right now.

I also get the feeling that Snape is more powerful than Voldemort. Voldemort just has the gall to use his powers for evil.

I think Snape is good, not evil, but most certainly a verbally cruel person.

Yes, Harry's hatred of Snape is way beyond reason (until the end of HBP, of course). Other teachers have been sarcastic to Harry without generating the loathing. And Snape HAS saved his life in the past. I seriously doubt if Harry ever wrote him a "Thank You" note

Although I do believe Snape is on the Order's side, he is certainly worthly of Harry's loathing. Snape humiliates students at their most vulnerable and has a childish vendetta against Harry.

At some point, Dumbledore or McGonagall should have sat them down together and forced them to hash things out, especially after OOTP. Not once during this six-year enmity did they actually have a conversation that could lead to understanding.

Part of me is wondering if this is by design... that maybe it would not due to have them civil to one another.

Hello everyone,

I find your discussion very interesting indeed but it's drifting off topic so please, be so kind and focus on Harry's False Confidence (or lack of it) and present your arguments.

Happy posting!

LL mod
You_won't_know_who

Maybe if Snape had to "report" to Voldemort, Voldemrt would use Legilimens and see how cruel Snape was to Harry, thus buying the "I hate Harry Potter and can't wait for the Dark Lord to snuff him out" story...

It does seem possible that Snape was told by DD to antagonize Harry. We've seen solid displays of ability from Harry when he's angry and nobody makes him angrier than Snape...

If Voldemort found out that Snape was chumming with Harry, then he might get suspicious...Makes sense to me...

Edited to stay on topic:

I don't see Harry as over-confident...He always haas a reason to do what he does, whether it's the right thing or wrong. His courage is what drives him. He KNOWS that he isn't the caliber of wizard as Snape, but yet is willing to take him on. That is courage, not over-confidence.

Harry is an athlete. He knows that even if you're going to play a match against the best quiddich champions, you psyche yourself and your team so that they can play with confidence. Look at how confidence improves Ron's game. I'm not sure he's got false confidence as much as much-needed "game face."