Ok, the third part of Advanced Potion-Making thread is going to include a poll - after so much discussion it will be good to know how many people think what.


Coincidence? Careful planning? Who did it and why? Let's the discussion continue...vote and present your arguments here!!!

You_won't_know_who, you are shameless. Putting the house-elfs in the poll!

As I am the first to vote, let alone respond, I will simply say I think it is exactly the sort of thing our cunning slytherin would come up with, to help Harry while remaining anonymous, as Harry would rather chew off his own wand arm that take help from Snape (which does not mean that Snape isn't to blame for that, of course). I did vote Snape knew all along, but I suppose that I really think he couldn't be absolutely sure so perhaps he guessed immediately is a better vote-but I did not want to include the possibility that DD told him because I think that is untrue.

Let the arguing begin!

I'm going with Acomb's razor here because there are just TOO many varibles and so little proof of who could have orchastrated the plan. Not saying any theory is wrong, but just not enough evidence for me to really suppor the ideas. I don't mind being wrong on this one and chances are it will end up being planted by someone other then an house elf. For now though that's where my vote is, some hyper cleaner put the book there, maybe Dobby did it on purpose, wouldn't be the first time he stole for Harry. Heck maybe DD did ask him to do so lol.

I don't think Snape put it there (althought it is my second choice, and my second choice is almost ex-equo with the first one), and i don't think Dunbledore did it, so i think somebody else might have done it, but not the house elves . Also i am sure the Snape knew Harry had the book, he had all the clues to find out, and IMO he kept his mouth shut because he was secretly investigating who gave the book to Harry.

Well, I'll agree with you PAM! I must say at first I thought there were too many variables as Shard said, but after reading all of the arguments, I've gradually come to the conclusion that coincidences only happen in real life, not the Potterverse. And yes, I doubt that Snape knew for certain that Harry had the book until later, but DD was not the one to tell him, he guessed during Slughorn's Christmas party.

Ah but coincidences DO happen in the books, as Jo has so recently reminded us "Mark Evans" does happen. She didn't mean for it, she just needed another name. The book could be the same way, Snape didn't mean to leave it there but he did.

But Shard, come now, Mark Evans was a random person haphazardly mentioned-The Half-Blood Prince is not only the title of Book 6 but also Severus Snape, clearly one of the most important characters in the series. How can it be a coincidence? Obviously, she didn't accidentally give the book that nickname, fogetting who "Prince" was. And also she's learned her Mark Evans lesson by now anyway.

This is true, and I'm not downplaying the importance of the book. In fact I think it shows us that Harry is actually good at potions. I mean I have said it before but what is Potions but Cooking and following a recipe? True to be a TRUE master you need creativity and the science of the the ingriediants (ironic but that does relate to the potions). Snape has ALWAYS been about Logic and it's use over senseless wandplay.

However without Snape harping over them even Neville does better, heck under Hermione's guidance he was able to save Trevor. Really being competant at Potions is not difficult, being a genius is. So I know the importance of the book, and I am sure there is more then I have mentioned. I just don't get the impression that Snape wanted Harry to have it or learn from it. He seemed quite angry that Harry was using spells from the book. All Snape has to really do to let Harry blossom as a potions maker is Leave the room. That's sad.

I am thoroughly ashamed PAM2002 and I admit that I couldn't resist!

I voted for the coincidence choice as, in my opinion, it would be the best for the plot : I imagine JKR rubbing her hands while everybody else speculate to death why Snape decided to help Harry in such an unusual way...I think that Snape became aware of what book Harry had only after the bathroom incident. Why he didn't try to push harder and recover the book remains for me unclear though...



To show that even the best of wizards can make mistakes and can be hoodwinked by the circumstances beyond their control. Or I am terribly wrong. Anyway I can't wait for the last book to find all the mysteries resolved.

Coincidence people-I'll admit I haven't thought about this, so help me here. When has something major happened in HP and it's been a pure coincidence? I'm just asking for some examples, as I love to look for patterns in the books. I've seen DD and Sirius give Harry things straight out-the cloak, the broom, the mirror. We've seen Lucius and Barty Crouch Jr. quietly cause trouble. But in the end, there was someone behind it.

I voted House elf and no untill the bathroom incident.

Coincidence throughout HP series: Can't bring one off the top of my head but JKrR would think summit like "so they think everything isn't coincidence well I'll just stick this in here and everyone will think it's been set up"

It probably won't be mentioned in book 7 if it is a coincidence but Snape will mention it if he did plant it.

Thanks for asking - I wanted so much to be asked this!!!
My favourite example:the Marauder's Map - a highly useful object but how come Harry got it? Had the Marauders planned the son of James Potter to be given the Map? No. Pure coincidence.

Somehow I always figured rather than her thinking people with have thought Snape was helping, like YWKW suggested, she'd hope people would believe that it just proved Snape was a back stabber (that is Harry trusted the Prince and he let him down)-like the eyeglass that punched Hermione in the eye.

Sorry, YWKH, but I have to disagree with you on the map-issue. The Marauders made the map without intent to give it to James' son, that is correct. But it surely did not end up in Harrys hands by chance - the twins gave it to him on purpous! They knew the kind of magic it posessed ant thought it to be something Harry needed. The coincident was not that it was given to Harry, it was Harrys relationship to the manifacturers.

As for the twins getting their hands on a confiscated object in Filch's office, that could of course be a coincident, but I've allways had the feeling that happened on more than one occasion... My guess is that Filch keeps his most dangerous/handy findings in a separate drawer, wich Fred and George probably found out in about a week.

I did, of course, vote for Snape as the sole conspirator behind the book and hence knowing all along. Anyone surprised? I didn't think so...

Gotta agree with Betty B too, YWKW, our main interest is Harry and things that revolve around Harry-Harry was given the map. So find me another . . .

Well if someone wanted Harry to have that book, they're doing awesome job of poker faces. Slughorn seems blissful unaware that his star pupil is getting assitance with a substandard book, if Hermione is NOT doing as well as Harry is I think the potion recipes are bad. Perhaps the book is about thinking outside the box and really seeing that the recipes given aren't correct and need to be corrected. This is after all advanced potion making.

I mean there is the 50/50 chance Slughorn could have handed the book to Ron. Though I do think that Ron would point out the scribblings to Harry. If Sluggy did give it to Harry he's a good actor.

Snape seems to not taunt Harry about giving him the book and it would have been so easy to do so. I refer to the end where he is screaming at Harry about using his spells on him. Though I suppose with the DE around he would't risk that.

Who ever "gave" the book to Harry is a master manipulator. Course I'm just fine with it being luck and coincidence, it's not like the book was THAT vital, not like the Map, Cloak or Broomsticks have been.

Also if 'they' wanted to have Harry to have Felix so badly they could just give it to him. I mean MM made Harry a Seeker in the first year, why not just hand him a vial of Felix and a note saying "Don't use unless an emergency". Heck I could see Slughorn plaming him some Felix, after all this is Harry Potter I mean Harry could really have been rubbish at potions and not been able to get that vial. So really what else did that book get him in the end? It seems to have done more harm then good really.

EDIT: Pam: I got a coincidence for you that DOES involve major plot, for the Twins though. The Twins were having trouble getting out their Snack Boxes, they needed something to counter all the crap they put in to it. The answer? Mrytlap Essence, and you know who they REALLY have to thank for it? Lee? Nope. He's just a middleman. Harry put Lee on to the Essence, but how did Harry know? Hermione gave it to him, why did she do this? Because that Evil Toad was torturing Harry. Umbridge is the reason the Twins were able to complete their snack boxes and earn all that money from the students and thus open their shop to the success that it is now.

Slughorn is actually a terrible actor-when Harry asks about the Horcrux, when they are in Hagrid's hut, and when he is in the hospital wing (talking about how shocked he is about Snape)-he gets sweaty, wipes his forehead, etc. I actually think he's terrible under real pressure. And Snape, "knows how to act." (Unless anyone brings up the Marauders or Harry!)
I'm going to take my point from the top again, with help of the book later. I've got to pull out some quotes. I realize I am trying to get you guys to prove me wrong, when I really should lay it all out again first. My bad.
But what I'm trying to say is that it's more than just about Harry and potions, it's about Harry and Snape, it may even be about Snape and Lily for all we know.
I do see your point, but I just can't give as much weight to something that doesn't directly involve Harry-that is, if that whole bit had been left out of the book, no one would have mourned it's loss. If you take the potions book out of HBP, you are pretty much left with a trip down memory lane with Tom Riddle. As I said I intend on posting a reinteration of some of the points we made earlier, for the benefit of those just joining us.

Well the way Snape is, had he have known from the beginning that Harry had his potions book, I think he would have used it against Harry and not let him keep it. So I went with he didnt know until the bathroom scene, thats why he sent Harry to get the potions book, he wanted it as far away from Harry as possable. Just my oppinion though.
And I do think it was coincidence that led to Harry getting the book, Slughorn just passed them over, and Ron could have been the one to get it, but then the story would not be as interesting would it.

Agreed. Sluggy=terrible actor, Snape=brilliant actor (unless Harry or James Potter are around to make him flip out)*is rubbing hands together in gleeful anticipation of Pam pulling out old quotes*
I've said before in version 2.0 that I think Snape gave away more than he intended to when he was screaming maniacally at Harry about using his spells against him. I am convinced that there are yet more things in the book that Snape needs Harry to know about, and Harry knowing the identity of the HBP really does not favor him going back to get the book now does it? What I am trying to say with this is that Snape screwed up by letting Harry know it was him, but I'm still not sure how much of a difference it will make because Harry doesnt seem as if he is going to connect the dots anytime soon.I'm glad we can all agree on the fact that if Harry was "given" the book then whoever did it was a master manipulator. Of course I'm biased, so there's only one person for me that comes to mind. Ususally Shard, you and I agree on a lot of things, but this is not one of them. I think the book will end up being very important by the time this story is ended. On the whole Essence thing, that's something that JKR could have worked out in a few different ways and it would not have made any kind of difference to the main plot. Not so with the book. I am now joining with Pam2002 and asking you guys to let us know if the main plot of the book (I mean book 6 was named after Snape's nickname after all) has ever been because of a coincidence or some kind of fluke.


nope, and I'm sure you know how I voted as well.

Will Harry get the book back now that he know's it's Snape? That's why I don't think Snape planted the book because he would no Harry wouldn't use the book if he knew it was Snape's so Snape wouldn't tell him he was the HBP because Harry would stop using it.

I think if Snape knew about it he would have been beside himself-talk about your invasion of privacy, etc. It would have been POA and OotP rolled into one-unless it was all his big idea in the first place. Then he can remain marginally annoyed with Harry and pretend he knows nothing.

To begin with the Christmas party-p.319 US HB
My thoughts about this passage, Snape doesn't give away much-but he doesn't think he taught Harry anything, so if he wanted to, maybe the book would be an excellent substitute. So if Snape is thinking Harry needs to be taught, he also knows what sort of teacher Slughorn is-will he push Harry or let him get away with things because he's special (and Lily's to boot)-then maybe he thinks the Prince can give him a hand. He also knows Harry doesn't ever turn in the things he finds-he's extremely secretive. Also, once Slughorn says no one's done better, Snape must know, because the book is doctored, and if he was the best in his class (or Lily was), Snape knows the only way to make an absolutely brilliant version is in his book. Snape speaks "quietly" which unless accompanied by an extreme facial expression or clenching fists is often an indicator. When he says "really?" I just picture a parent having been called by the teacher but their child doesn't know yet-"So any trouble at school today, Timmy?" "No, mom." "Really?" Lastly, McGonagall promised to help Harry be an Auror, she probably went on and on about it, Snape also recognizes the classes no doubt, if he is not evil personified, I think he wants Harry to succeed, hence only the "faintest sneer." So at this point not only do I not think he seems at all shocked but I also think he must know.

Next up-the bathroom scene! pp.523-528 Obviously, I can't put it all in, so here are the chosen clips of Snape's attitude-

At this point Snape is understandably ticked. Whether he's trying to save Malfoy, Harry, or just two students, his anger is justified.

When Snape asked Harry he once again had to know already where he learned it, no one else had used it (so it wasn't like Levicorpus, going in and out of fashion). But he asks Harry anyway, why should he give himself away at this point anyway. He doesn't know what Harry knows about the book. I'm sure the first rule of spying involves just this sort of playing your cards close to your chest. But does he seem suprised? No. Then he does his little legilimency number on Harry.

Again I note that he's speaking softly, not sneering, not with eyes glittering with malice, etc. I also think if he really, really wanted the book back he would have gone with Harry to get it. But instead, he waits, which gives Harry time-think of DD telling Harry to get his cloak, when it was DD who told him to have it with him at all times. Snape is giving Harry time to do something with it, if he wants to, IMO. But Harry doesn't want to look bad to Snape or Slughorn, so he opts for hiding it.

To me, this is not the Snape that threw Harry bodily from his office in OotP or was so "unbalanced" to quote Fudge in POA. He is hardly upset at all, compared to his normal "Potter"-stance. We know he certainly wasn't in the loop in POA and the extreme violation of privacy of OotP, I think, would be repeated here if Snape did not have a hand in Harry getting the book. He could have demanded it and no one would have been the wiser, he wouldn't have had to give himself away to get it. Harry will do anything not to disappoint DD for one, but he also doesn't want to disappoint Slughorn. And I think we all agreed that if Snape had wanted to push for expulsion it would have been at least possible at this point, even if he wouldn't have succeeded.

Lastly, the Flight of the Prince-p.604

Obviously, I could quote the whole chapter but this is the crux of it-Snape is handling Harry fine, he's even OK the first time Harry calls him a coward, but once he starts on the spells, that's when Snape really starts to loose it. Why? One, James did the same thing. But surely whether Snape was involved with the book or not, he doesn't want Harry using the spells on him. One thing I disagree on with SoonerGryffindor is I don't really think it was a mistake to tell Harry, because I think Harry will have to come to terms with Snape at some point. If he recalls how attached he was to the Prince, that might actually help him, in the long run. But not right away, he's too upset at this point. But I do also believe Snape sort of knows his job is the scapegoat, so one more reason to have Harry hate him is not going to be the straw that broke the camel's back.

What is the point of this extremely long post-some reference material, so it's easier to argue but at the very least, I think it can be said Snape knew long before the bathroom scene that something was up. I believe it was Marielle that pointed out Harry hexed Crabbe in October. No doubt Snape would have recognized one of his own spells even then.

I dare not summarize clunycat's background reasons for believing Snape would do this. But for me, the patient, cunning, behind the scenes style of both a spy and a slytherin as well as Snape's inate private nature, make it hard for me to imagine he would stand for Harry to have his book, unless it was his decision to give it to him. Of course, the fact that without Harry, Snape is doomed to serve Voldemort until he dies, might also weigh into Snape's decision, especially since Snape know better than anyone the state of DD's health.

I'm exhausted! (Sorry for any typos, I just can't be fussed right now!)

Wow I am impressed PAM, honestly...



I would agree with this statement if Snape thought that the book might contribute to the downfall of Voldemort, but you state that he wants Harry to succeed and I have a different view. The last thing that Snape wants is Harry being the best student and the most popular boy of his year - too much resemblance with James Potter, and every time James is mentioned Snape goes nuts to say the least... so, the purpose of giving Harry the book must have been quite different...if it was given at all, of course.

Shard - I tottaly agree that Murtlap Essence was a coincidence, and I'd like to defend my position on the Marauder's Map (*sorry BettyB) - nobody and nothing forced the Weasley twins to give the Map to Harry, they could have given it to their younger brother or sister, so for me it was a coincidence too or a momentary decision, as you like it. According to their own account of finding the Map, it was a pure coincidence that they found it in Filch's office - they neither looked for it or knew of its existence- they didn't go there on purpose, they didn't know what drawer to look at...really, the more I think about it the more likeness I find with the circumstances in which the Potions book was given to Harry, sorry, it's maybe only me...


Another example - Room of Requirement. Harry asked Dobby not expecting him even to answer, not knowing about the place; you can hardly argue that Dumbledore gave him a useful hint as Harry at that time (Yule bal) simply didn't caught it at all...

There are plenty of coincidences in the books but we usually call it magic.

Oh, stop!
OK, Snape wants Harry to succeed in defeating LV, and the ends justify the means, so Snape will do anything to that end, including helping him. Better?
About this, I still think that would suggest someone gave it to Harry, just as someone gave him the map. Even if you make a trail away from the original owners, someone purposely handed it to Harry (or arranged his potions cabinet for the best possible outcome).
Well, honestly, there have to be things that move the plot along. But I still am standing by the fact that we are talking about half the plot of the book and a contender for most important character besides Harry. So I will agree there are some coincidences but nothing of this magnitude, IMO.

It is posible that it was a coincidence that harry got the book but I believe it was DD who was behind getting it to harry.
DD is the master planner, maybe more than we now know.
DD needed for harry to win the felix potion, remember what DD saw in the mirror in book one, socks which is what harry kept the potion in.
What DD wanted more than anything was to keep his students safe after his death.

DD needed for harry to understand Snape better so they can work together in book 7 but that could be hard now that harry thinks Snape killed DD.

DD kept a close eye on harry, so I don't think Snape would have tried to get the book to harry without DD's approval.

I think after the occlumency lessons, DD would not have told Snape that he wanted harry to have Snape's old book.

I wonder why harry didn't just lie and say he learned the spell from Sirius?

I think that it was mere coincidence. After Snape found out about the book after the bathroom incident (he would have known, since Sectumsempra has not been use for years since his time at Hogwarts), he told DD, and DD told him to let Harry go on looking through the book because it would teach him a lot.



I agree with that, but I also think that what Snape was trying to do was to tell Harry that he is more powerful than Harry thinks he is, and that he can actually tell what's going on. Also, Snape might have been testing to see if Harry had even tried to do anything with the Occlumency learned the year before, although he would not need it that much anymore, though occasionally, he might.

I just remembered another coincidence that happened in PS, when they got the Chocolate frog's, Harry got one of DD which had the name Nicholas Flamel on it and lead to solving what it was that was being guarded down in that underground place. I mean they could have picked up ANY frog, what if they didn't get DD that day? There must be hundreds of cards out there and it was just PURE luck Harry and Ron got a DD card.

You will never find me arguing against DD being the master planner, but I also see he tends to have a hand-off approach. So I can believe his people work in the frame of general directives, unless a specific order is issued.
I'll admit I do see the Felix and the need to get near to Slughorn for the Horcrux memory as compelling reasons for DD to have had a hand in it.
In a way that's amusing because DD wants Harry to understand Snape while he tells Snape to kill him (at least if you follow the parallel of the cave scene-do what I say no matter what).
I promise I'm not picking on you BloodyScot, but you think Snape is so good he'd never do anything behind DD's back? Lupin did, Mundungus did, probably more people that I can't think of. Snape has shown a propensity for doing what he wants actually-wanted to catch Sirius, outed Lupin, was party to Barty Crouch Jr's kiss (in interesting point, since he messed up with Sirius), he got out of Occlumency lessons. (Good thing I'm not arguing Snape's loyalty or I'd say I just shot myself in the foot! )
No, probably not. But Snape saw that Harry really wasn't James-as we discussed before (was that you SoonerGryffindor?). When Snape got into Harry's head and then Harry bounced back into Snape's, it became clear that Snape was looking at his own childhood as he saw Harry's. Again, not sympathy but identification.
First of all, Harry would not have wanted to provoke a tirade about his recently deceased godfather. He knows how the two of them were. Bad idea. But have we ever seen anyone but Snape (and Harry) use Sectumsempra? Why would he think Sirius knew it? Better to pretend it was in some random place, a library book, in hopes that it was copied out by the Prince.

xxOtempora-I can't see anyone thinking it's a good idea for Harry to have it after Sectumsempra. (Well, except Snape.) It's one thing if DD was in on it at the beginning, but to say they decided to let Harry keep it after he nearly kills someone seems a bit off.

OK, Shard, there are some coincidences-you're getting warmer too with Nicholas Flamel, since that does go with the stone.

I agree with the posters who believe Snape knew for most of the year that Harry had his book. If he did not want Harry to have the book I think Snape had the surreptitious ability and/or the authority as owner and teacher (Hermione argued Harry was cheating- a teacher could too) to take it back at any moment.

So, why did Snape allow/suffer Harry to have his book and reap the unjust rewards from it?
either because:
1. Snape would get in trouble retroactively for being the owner of the book, or, more believably,
2. Snape was trumped and Harry was supposed to have the book.

I think DD wanted Harry to have the book and Snape capitulated to his demands, but wasn't happy about it.

I'm also no longer convinced that Snape abhors Harry just because of James. I'm playing with the idea that Snape has a growing resentment for Harry as his hatred of James fades... he can identify with Harry's childhood, but Snape was still a pariah at school while Harry was a celebrity- I still don't think Sanpe is reasonable or responsible (I mean that his feelings are irresponsible and immature- not that he, a man, a teacher is not responsible for Harry- he is) in this in this, but, well, there you have it.

So, I think DD orchestrated Harry to have the book, and I'm still not sure about Slughorn's not playing a part in this- he was freaked out about the memory because his role in the creation of the Horcruxes is very, very, VERY bad and he might think Dumbledore would prosecute him... but if Slughorn was given the green light by DD to be deceitful, I think he would be very convincing indeed. Snape would then have figured it or he would have been told.

Wow Pam, that was really well done, you even made me change my mind and i switched my choice number 2 ( Snape gave the book to Harry) is now number 1, and well now my new number two choice is somebody else did it behind Snape's back. As it was relativey easy to make sure Harry got the book, whoever did it, probably used the same method, left the HBP book and an even uglier one, just in case two new student would suddendly show up.

I think, with what you have said, and with all the clues that were available to Snape berfore Christmas (and yes it's me who brought those clues), that Snape had to know Harry had the book and Snape just put on an act in the bathroom, after the Sectumsempra incident, pretending searching Harry's belonings. So to me it is absolutely clear, that Snape had to know before Christmas, because all the evidence that we have points in that direction, and you explained it so well Pam.

Now i think the real problem we have is to determine what were Snape reasons to place the book there for Harry to have? If he was the one leaving it there, which is well highly probable. To me it is pretty clear Snape didn't do it to help Harry to become an Auror, so he had to have other reasons. I really like the idea he was trying to prove Harry that he is able to teach and that Harry could learn from him, because somehow it think, it will be important in the next book, as i think they will have to work together, even if Harry don't like it he will have to make real effort.

Althought, since people seems to love coincidence here, maybe McGonagall did all that to make sure Harry could become an auror, but in the end the action she took will just end up helping Harry to be able to work with Snape, because it allowed Harry to open his eyes!

Even a major plot of the book might start with something as simple as a coincidence, in my opinion. In fact, the simpler the better. A coincidence solves many problems with "who", "when" or "how", otherwise rather difficult to explain.



If Dumbledore wanted Harry to have the book, why not give it to him personally? Or send it to the boy directly? There were so many opportunities during the hollidays.

Snape has complied with many difficult Dumbledore's decisions but eventually, always got what he wanted. Unwanted private lessons? Let's provoke the boy to break some rules (my version of events of course ). A werewolf as a teacher? Let the students know who and what he is, let them tell their parents about it...Now, if Dumbledore forced Snape to lend Harry his beloved and highly useful Potions book, I am sure Snape would wiped all additional tips from it.

I voted for coincidence. I don't think Snape intended harry to get the book at all. I don't think he is aware of the fact that Harry could do better if Snape wasn't directly teaching him. He knows what an excellent Potions Master he is, and therefore would think who better to teach him. While the book is his, it is not the same as him teaching. I don't think he would've thought that it could help harry in any way, and I don't think he would've trusted him with something that was so personal to him (it was after ll originally his Mom's book).

I voted for didn't know until the bathroom, although he probably suspected at least since Christmas. Snape must have assumed that Harry had some way of "cheating" to improve his potions performance. He probably had an idea of how, but had more important things to find out during the year (like Draco's plan) than whether those suspicions were true.

Well, that last bit is sort of my point too-if anyone forced Snape to do it he would have been a lot less willing to let Harry keep it. IMO, it's only because he did it that he could stand it at all. I also agree if DD was behind it, he would have sent it to Harry with a note saying "Use it well."

But other than just being completely lost, why would anyone besides Snape even know it existed? How could DD even ask for it? Unless again, DD said something like, "I need Harry to get close to Slughorn, to be really good in potions class. Any ideas Severus?" So more of a generic request for Snape to fill in the blanks. But I don't see it.

Now, if Dumbledore forced Snape to lend Harry his beloved and highly useful Potions book, I am sure Snape would wiped all additional tips from it. On this subject I wholeheartedly support your opinion, YWKW! There is simply no way I can see Snape handing out his precious book against his own will, if he did not want Harry to have it, he'd found a way to either not handing it out or getting it back ASAP.

But unlike you, I can't see Snape loosing track of his old book, making any room for coincidents. In this case. The problem with discussing "coincidents" in a fictional novel, is that the author has figured out every move and every plotline during the writing process. In that perspective there are no pure coincidents at all in fiction, merely more or less likely chains of events. Since JKR has to figure out different ways for Harry and the others to get informations and/or objects that matter in the storyline, the "coincidents" remains planned. Although, I have to agree that the chocolatefrog card can be seen as a fictional coincident, even if I personally tend to look at it as a clue fore the attentive reader.

I don't think anyone suggests that Snape gave Harry (or let him keep) the potions book in order to become an auror. At least to me that is unthinkable. That is too small a subject for Snape to bother himself with - it merely has to do with Harrys future. If Snape's going to involve himself, it has to have some kind of importance to him, the bourne slytherin has to gain from it. If there is a chance of Harry being the chosen one, Snape can benefit from it. In that case helping Harry means decreasing the chances of LV, increasing the possibilities for Snape to achieve whatever his goal may be. And since Snape was unable to learn Harry anything at all face to face, a more cunning method was used. IMO a too sneaky method to be of AD's doing.

I voted that I am still unsure as to why the potions books was in the cupboard as that is still how I feel about it, although I don't believe that it was purely a coincidence either. I also do think Snape knew that Harry had his book, though from what point in HBP I really don't know.

Ok, I voted for DD planting the book there without telling Snape. I don't know whether this is true, I'm more inclined to thinking that he got it by a coincidence, but Snape must have left the book at the school somehow. He might have lost it, he might have let it lying around, or something, but I don't think a house-elf put it in the cupboard...so I don't know how it got there.

I'm sure though that Snape didn't know Harry had the book until the bathroom incident because his reaction after having done legilimency on Harry was of surprise and anger, and he sent Harry for his books to get it back.

I have 2 main problems with the theories about DD planting te book: DD values his students lives above his own. Then why would he set up the book so Harry would get it when it has spells like Sectumsepera? DD would know Harry might use it on Malfoy, as he did, so he would have got rid of that spell. And if DD wanted HArry to use FF on Slughorn why didn't he say "Ahh Harry, I believe you have a small bottle of FF, why don't you use some of that on Slughorn to get his spell."

the Snape theory: Harry could have learnt Sectumsepera off Sirius or Lupin as it has to be said out loud. That proves that Snape can't just say that he knows that spell because he's got the book.

There does seem to be some signifigance in the scenes where Snape and Harry get into eachother's heads. I don't see how Snape could have given Harry the book on purpose unless he put a spell on it or something, but I agree that for some reason he let Harry keep it. Or atleast he didn't try very hard to get it back. Does anyone else find it odd that Ron had trouble reading the half-blood prince's hand writting while harry didn't have any trouble at all? Snape didn't like that Harry was getting credit for his work, but there also must be some reason that Snape wanted Harry to read the book. In the end Snape basically forced Harry to hide the book so that Harry couldn't use it in class, but he could go back and get it later. If Snape is evil why would he leave Harry with his secrets to making better advanced potions?

Do we actually know it has to be said outloud? Harry did but he also slashed Malfoy to bits (I believe that his wild wand waving had a lot to do with it as well). But I am curious about whether, if used the way Snape did in OotP-just the cut to James' face, it must be said aloud. We certainly didn't read it in OotP. Then there is the spell that hurt Hermione in OotP, if it had been said aloud it would have been worse, but it still did something nonverbally.

OK, how did Snape become separated from his book? I find Snape to be the type either to cling (his hate, his house, etc) or to destroy (a good spy covering his tracks). I have trouble believing he just left it one day and forgot all about it. It is full of information I don't believe Snape would want shared with the world at large. (If Filch ended up with it, Snape could have gotten it back, because Filch is in his pocket.)

It occurs to me as I reflect, did Snape think Harry could figure out who the Prince was based on Sectumsempra alone? Snape used it on his "enemy" in the pensieve scene which Harry saw. I know Harry isn't Hermione, but I could tell what that spell was going to do almost as soon as I read it. Just a thought.

Whatknot-as for the handwriting-I did think it was odd that Harry had less trouble with it than Ron (although he's no genius). I wondered whether the book actually belonged to Snape's mum and she and Tom worked on it-so Harry would sort of recognize it, the way he felt the name Tom Riddle was vaguely familiar in COS. I wondered whether Lily wrote it, but just because someone is your parent doesn't really mean you could read their handwriting (my mother and I always joke over the grocery lists, depending on which of us wrote it). Also, I have trouble believing Lily would have written "for enemies" on anything and the handwriting is the same throughout. I feel supremely confident ( Yeah, right) that Snape is the HBP and he at least invented those spells he claims to have created (although I do have a back-up theory when this one falls apart).

Yes Pam2002, that was me a long time ago and I still hold firmly to that belief (as you know already). Whatknot, you bring up some of the very points that got me thinking very hard about this many months ago and after pondering and working it out on this thread, have led me to the conclusions that I now have about the whole incident.

Dear ladies, what a bliss! We actually agree in one point!!!

OK, the sunny hollidays are over, back to normality...

BettyB said:

Why would he keep it so close all the time?
What did he need it for? Sentimental reasons? Not very sentimental he seems to be, our Snape. One day in the year would be enough for him to be sentimental, maybe even less. Practical reasons? If he had invented all these spells and recipes he knew them by heart, I am sure of it. We've never seen Snape teaching out of a book, it was already told. Not even his own book.



Certainly, I agree here, helping Harry defeat the Dark Lord would be very tempting... but why the book of Potions? And why it was done in such a risky way? After all the boy might have had his own book or might have preferred a new book to an older one...I find the method very un-Dumbledore-ish and very un-Snape-ish too...that's why I say :coincidence.

You know on a side note, I think there is some sentimentality with this book. If his mother gave it to him and he kept it, maybe for that very reason he still has it. Then couple that with the fact that he still has his Muggles father's name, seems maybe Snape does know what the meaning of love is. Even if he's in the "So bitter he makes vinager taste sweet" category.

To me that would make it even harder to believe he would hand this over to Harry, especially given how psycho he went over his own Worst memory in OOTP. It does seem that any time a Marauder is around Snape loses it big time. I agree that it is strange that he would keep this personal item in his class room and not office.

I don't see how "wiping all the additional tips from it" would still faclitate DD's objective because it is what is contained on the pages of the book, all the additional tips and hints, that Harry begins to succeed in potions, and not the material fact of the book that gives it its value (although Shard makes a great point about its sentimentality to Snape which would be yet another way in which DD's will overlooks how Snape feels in order to achieve a greater good). I am sure Snape was resentful that Harry benefitted from his hardwork but trusted in Dumbledore's decision to give him the book- although he doubted (thick)Harry was capable of benefitting from it and was surprised to learn differently from Slughorn at his party.

The number of coincidences required to get the book in Harry's hand eliminates "coincidence" as a possibility for me: That Harry would not achieve the grade to get into Snape's class, that Snape would be replaced with someone more lenient, that Harry was not told, despite his role in convincing Slughorn to teach which class he would be teaching so Harry could even consider taking Potions, Harry is encouraged to take Potions, but does not have a book, that Harry, not Ron, is given HBP's book... I'm sure there are even more coincidences that I havent considered.

I'm glad PAM brought up the method of attaching a note to it and telling HArry to "Use it well." When DD did that with the Invisibility Cloak, Harry wondered all year who had given it to him, essentially who had given him permission to use it- he didn't know whom to thank nor on whose authority he was acting. If DD employed the same method, Harry would know Dumbledore had given him the book. So why didn't DD want him to know who had given him the book? Why didn't DD just hand the cloak to Harry?

DD gifted the Invisibility Cloak to Harry, too, although Harry has on occasion "misused" it by eavesdropping, sneaking to Hogsmeade, Zonkos, even attacking Draco unawares (who, granted, was outnumbering Ron and Hermy at the time). Even I make the case that many of those occasions contributed to defeats of Voldemort, but others were simply Harry's willfulness and youthful exuberance getting the better of him, leading him astray... the same could be said about the spells and hints, frankly bordering on cheating, in the HBP's book- but DD (if in fact he was the source of the book and conspired to get it into Harry's hands) saw the benefits of both items and thinking the best of Harry, trusted him to use them well and believed the benefits to outweigh the dangers inherent in each.

I picked because Snape wanted Harry to learn the spells for use against LV. i'm not 100% sure but... ermm.. I think I need some more time.

In a way that's what I'm saying too, YWKW, I think he brought the book from somewhere (we do know he was home for the summer). Or perhaps it was just in his quarters. Now as for the sentimentality issue . . . well he is actual emotional when he chooses to be. And he does have the tendency to cling to both good and bad. But, no, I agree he doesn't have it on the off chance he forgets how to brew Felix.
Snape knows Harry (with regard to the odds of him using the book)-Harry is curious and secretive, Harry would keep the book just like he's collected the cloak, the map. Just like he got totally busted for sneaking around in POA and yet continues to do it. Just like he went into the pensieve but then did keep the secret. Harry does not go to DD or McGonagall. But this leads into Shard's comments . . .
Thank you for saying this Shard. I think it's telling that, yes, the Half-Blood Prince got over his need to go by a ridiculous moniker and went back to his Muggle father's name, unlike Voldemort. I agree that Snape feels some attachment to the book-perhaps reminds him of mum. Or the other dreaded possibilty, the lovely Lily Evans, the gifted potions student. YWKW, does Snape really seem the type to call himself the Half-Blood Prince? Does he really have that much self-esteem? I think not. I think he actually knows what a low life he is, and that one of these two ladies gave him the nickname.
I think as we are coming closer to the end, we have got to figure out the reason for Snape's hasty retreat from the Dark Lord's camp when he learned of the danger the Potters were in. Obviously, some part of that stuck in his craw, big time. If, and I do say if, there is a Lily situation, giving Harry this book is huge, huge.

You know all that disucssion about sentimental issue, has been bothering me. I happen to thing that yes he is, he loves too much his hate of James that he cherish it so much he can,t let it go. Snape doesn't want his hate to go away, i think he this indicate that yes he can be sentimental, maybe not the way we usually are! Any way my point is, he seems to cling to think that are important to to him, so i think a book in which holds many of his first creations can certainly hold some sentimental value to Snape. Now we don't know, how it got it the cupboard, and i definitely don't think Snape forget it there.

Now, i know , some where previoulsy, i wrote that maybe Filch had it at some point. Now i still think it could be possible, but somehow i am not sure it is that relevant, and here is why. If Filch had confiscated it while Snape was a student, he would have put it somewhere in his office. Now a few years later Snape becomes a teacher, after lets say a few months or maybe a year or two, Snape beign the sentimental person he could be on some issue, could have asked for the book back, or could even have took it without telling Filch. Which mean that Snape had to have the book, before it got to the cupboard. Unless somebody else had confiscated it and never handed it to Filch?

Maybe that's all Snape has left, Hate, he may have lost every single person he ever loved or ever loved him. We don't know if his parents are alive, we don't know what Snape may feel he has to live for other then doing everything to take Voldemort down. If that means killing DD, then it may also mean handing over his precious Potions book to Potter.

Hmm, why is this book important to Snape? Sure, some of his inventions are in it, but then, I would think (as said before) that he doesn't need the book to be remembered of it. For him, it's all too easy. He probably stashed it in the teachers cubboard where no one would dare touch it. He may even have forgotten about (where he left) it (or it wasn't in the forefront of his mind), since he didn't seem to be going to an other teaching position anyway. His shift to DADA (for Harry the best possible teacher shift: failing DADA wasn't going to happen: potions was: Thanks to DD...) was probably unexpected for him.

By the way: If I remember correctly there was more than one copy of advanced potion making in the cubboard: It was coincidence that Harry got this book.

Snape probably suspected Harry had his old book after Christmas. He knew for sure at the scene in the bathroom. I'm still in doubt though for his reasons to give Harry the opporunity to replace the book. I agree with previous remarks that he did it purposefully, Snape also gave himself the opportunity to think by bringing Draco to the infirmery.
So why did Snape give Harry time to change the book? There are more reasons possible than mentioned earlier (though it is of course possible that I overlooked some...):

• Snape is covering his own back: his book with such dark magic falling in the hands of any student would look bad, very bad... He was trusted by the other teachers due to DD's confidance. A trick like this would certainly damage his fragile reputation. By "checking" all Harrys books he clears himself from being involved.
• He definately knows now that Harry has his old book. Taking it back has little result now. Who is to say that Harry didn't already copy all the additions? He does it to let Harry know he knows about the book Harry has. It is a very clear warning to Harry to be a bit less, how shall I say this, stupid...

Very true. It has been already pointed that maybe Snape did care about the book but not very much - otherwise he would turn the Griffindor tower upside down, force-feed Harry and Ron ( or indeed anyone on his way) of Veritaserum and got it back. He didn't. He made sure, however, that the book remained hidden for the time being - Harry simply didn't dare to use it anymore. And this fact seemed to satisfy our greasy hero. That's why the sentimentality issue rings hollow for me - sorry.


For him, it's all too easy. He probably stashed it in the teachers cubboard where no one would dare touch it. He may even have forgotten about (where he left) it (or it wasn't in the forefront of his mind), since he didn't seem to be going to an other teaching position anyway. His shift to DADA (for Harry the best possible teacher shift: failing DADA wasn't going to happen: potions was: Thanks to DD...) was probably unexpected for him.


Very intelligent remarks indeed !!!

If Snape really toyed with the decision of killing Dumbledore, maybe this book will be one argument too many for the headmaster, who sweared all the time that he trusted Severus Snape but might have had his own doubts...and Snape was only too aware of them...



I wholeheartedly agree, PAM2002 but, in my humble opinion (as usual) Snape has developped the liking for the splendours and grandeur - remember his deep content when Fudge offered him this order of third class in PoA? After a while he might have been pleased with his nickname...

YWKW, I love your avatar. I just recently read Angels and Demons, and I think it was great!

Now, on to more important things. :-p



I don't think it would have had the same effect on Harry if Dumbledore had sent it to him himself. I think part of the allure of the book was the fact that he had absolutely no idea where it came from. If he assumed it was Dumbledore's, or if he felt that he could just ask Dumbledore whose book it was, then it would have lost much of its appeal.



Snape and Dumbledore both knew that Harry wouldn't have his own potions book. Here's a theory that just popped into my head. Let me know what you think about it. Snape does not allow students into his Advanced Potions class unless they make an Exceeds Expectations on their OWLS, right? Snape knew that Harry wouldn't make that kind of score, and possibly he set the standards after they received Harry's OWL results. But--Snape and Dumbledore both probably knew that Snape would not be teaching potions the following year, so his policies would not necessarily be followed. So, they led Harry to believe that he would not be able to take Advanced Potions, so that he wouldn't buy the textbook, but they knew that once he had the opportunity to take it, he would, since he wants so badly to be an Auror... So they set it up that way so that he wouldn't have his own book, so that he would take the Prince's. What do you think?



Well, Snape definitely knows the meaning of love. Whether it was from his parents or from a romantic involvement, he has been loved before, and as Jo said in her TLC/MN interview, "that makes him even more culpable than Voldemort."

All is very nice - it could have been this way...but why not give Harry the old book in a more direct manner? Imagine for a second that Dumbledore and Snape indeed plotted to feed Harry info about Potions in that way...wouldn't it be better if Dumbledore himself told Harry: "here, have this used copy of Advanced Potion-Making, don't bother to buy the new one. You'll find there some interesting tips - read them carefully and you'll profit from them enormously...".
Harry is more and more mature - the lure of a forbidden fruit is not so appealing for him as it used to be. If Dumbledore himself endorsed the book, Harry would read it with real interest. He would read it even if he knew that there are no Potions classes for him.