I dont really know if this is posted somewhere else; but what is the veil, exactly? How does it work and why did sirius not come out of it? Is it some sort of Portkey to the underworld?

Is the fact that both Harry and Luna could hear voices behind the veil, and both see the therestrials important? It implies that the voices could be from someone who has died. Is there any other significance? Does this mean that if Harry were to go back to the veil that he might be able to contact Sirius?

Lupin says to harry, that "he is gone" but does that mean he is trapped into a sort of vortex? Is it true that he is really dead? I find the veil fastinating, and slightly creepy. But I feel that it could either be more meaningful to the storyline, or at least interesting to find out how it works.

We know of other devices, and know their function much more than the veil. We know about pensives and occulumency and the mirror of erised and even the sorceres stone, where they all came from and how they work.

All we have been told (from the books at least, i'm unaware of any statements JKR has said about the veil) is that it makes Harry and Hermione feel uneasy, and that he hears voices, and the person who goes through the veil is presumably dead.

This thread belongs in Magical Theory and so...

Accio Thread!

There we go!

Shard LL Moderator.

The description of the veil has been discussed a bit in the tarot thread because it resembles the veil on the High Priestess card, which also appears on the Hierophant and Justice. Since there are so many references to the tarot from the Hanged Man to the Lightening Struck tower and many in between, you might want to grab a guide and have a read or look at the tarot thread. Happy hunting!

I figure the Veil is a sort of wizard capital punishment device. It is possible that once the dementors started working for the ministry, they stopped using it. I assumed the veil to be a one way trip to death.

This is from the interview Melissa and Emerson did with JKR last summer. Since Melissa phrased the question in the past tense, "Was it used...", and since JKR is usually very particular about how she answers questions, I always assumed that Jo was saying that it was never used as an execution device, not that is just wasn't used that way anymore. Just thought I'd throw that out there...

I think that the veil may be a portal to another dimension, a place of secrets. How did Sirius die when he fell through it? It doesn't make sense. Unless he actually hit bottom or something, but we didn't hear that. If Harry went through the veil, would he die? It seems as if people there are trapped in limbo maybe. Although Luna's comment seems to me like she hears people talking behind it like it's no big deal - the people are okay.

I don't understand why many people assumed that Sirius was dead when he fell behind the veil. How is Lupin and everyone else so sure? It makes no sense to me. If the Dept. of Mysteries is only used for studying, if there was something dangerous that people could fall into and at the very least hurt themselves, wouldn't there be a warning? Harry and his friends weren't exactly supposed to be there of course.

Or, are they the voices of spirits or echoes? Is it another dimension? I don't think that it's a portal through time because there are Time - Turners for that, and there already appears to be a time room with time turners.

Okay, I like where you are taking this. I'm going to put my own spin on your questions and at least try to answer them.

I think don't think that the veil is death. I know alot of people do, but Ginny makes me say no. Ginny is the only one out of the four (Harry, Luna and Neville) than has never witnessed a death (not one we know of at least). I think that it may be another dimension of sorts. As Hogwarts scholar said, a limbo of sorts. Neither a heaven or a hell. But the "voices", according to Luna, don't seem distressed. They're ok. But I wonder about Luna. I wonder about her motives.

Though everyone seems so sure and says that Sirius is dead, I don't think that they really know. They're just trying to help Harry let go, because they know that Sirius no longer inhabits this earth.

I don't think that spirtis are behind the veil. Merely echos of lives once lived? I agree though, that it is not a time portal.

Back to the death thing. I know alot of people think that this is death itself. The "one way ticket". But if this were so, then wouldn't more people know of it. Instead of "going to heaven" after death, wouldn't people think they're "going beyond the veil"? All very confuzing to me.

Jo says that, "The Department of Mysteries is all about studying". But how can you study this without sparing peoples lives? I would imaging that to learn about this, you would need to throw people into it. Maybe they throw the soul-less people into it. The people that had their souls sucked out by dementors. Or maybe people go into it willingly. It wouldn't be exectution if it were voluntary.

I also wonder why Harry never asked questions about it. He never asked DD, Lupin, Moody,McGonagall, anyone, about the veil. Why was that. I would have though that curiosity would have been eating at hime all summer.

I see us learning more about the veil in Book 7, because I foresee alot of Book 7 taking place within the MoM.

I think the veil has probably been there longer than the people studying it. The ministry could have been built around the veil. I feel like its more of an embodiment of the mystery of death than an actual force of causing death.

It could be the remains of a temple to Isis. The romans built one in London. An altar stone was found from the 3rd century where one Marcus Matiannus Pulcher rebuilt the temple which had fallen into ruin. When the Golden Dawn group tried to revive magic in the 19th century, they revived a form of goddess worship. The only other thing I can think of that took place in London that might be magically significant is that the god Bran's head was supposed to have been buried on Tower Hill which is why the ravens are there. Obviously the MoM is not on Tower Hill so, since there was a temple to Isis in the old, Roman part of London, and Isis is the High Priestess on the tarot cards, I think the veil could have something to do with Isis, who had powerful magic.
What would a temple to Isis be like? Anyone know?
If wizards go to the same place in death as everyone else, then should that be a land of the dead? It doesn't fit with the Christian view of what takes place after death. But in a story you can make up whatever you want really.
"Plutarch records the following inscription from the portico of the Temple of Isis at Sais: "Isis am I, I am all that was, that is, and that shall be and no one of mortals has ever lifted my veil." "
The veil is supposed to be the screen between the apparent world and what is true according to some interpretations. But Isis was also queen of the Underworld and her star was Sirius. I am interested by the fact that Rowling uses other mythical figures like Circe as famous witches but Isis who is known for her magic is not a famous witch in her world.

"Origin of the name
The river's name appears always to have been pronounced with a simple "t" at the beginning; the Middle English spelling was typically Temese and Latin Tamesis. The "th" lends an air of Greek to the name and was added during the Renaissance, possibly to reflect or support a belief that the name was derived from River Thyamis in the Epirus region of Greece, whence early Celtic tribes are thought to have migrated. However, most scholars now believe Temese and Tamesis come from Celtic (Brythonic) Tamesa, possibly meaning 'the dark one'.
The name Isis, given to the part of the river running through Oxford, may have come from the Egyptian goddess of that name but is believed to be a contraction of Tamesis, the Latin (or pre-Roman Celtic) name. Richard Coates has recently suggested that the river was called the Thames upriver, where it was narrower and Plowonida down river, where it was too wide to ford. This gave the name to a settlement on its banks, which became known as Londinium, from the original root Plowonida (derived from pre-celtic Old European 'plew' and 'nejd,' meaning something like the flowing river or the wide flowing unfordable river)."
To support my Temple of Isis theory I lifted this from Wikipedia. So Thames is interpreted by some as meaning the river of Isis. The location of the temple itself has not yet been found. However a pottery shard relating to the temple was found in Southwark, just across the river from where the Lexicon places the MoM.
And the altar piece confirming the presence of a temple to Isis was found in 1975 in a London seawall. Early enough for Rowling to have heard of it.

Actually, it sounds like the veil was created at the same time as the Ministry.
(memerson3)

What a shame that the MoM was younger than Hogwarts cause you know Hogwarts must be post Roman.
It would have been a good explanation what the veil was and might hint that Harry has to go back there in classic epic hero style to bring back some boon. I wonder if she knows that Thames is latin for River of Isis. Since it is commonly known as Isis upstream, I would expect her to be aware of that. With the influence of some research into the tarot being evident, maybe she latched on to the Temple of Isis idea without troubling to find archeological evidence. After all, she started writing this before the internet grew as it has as a research tool and even then, I had to do some digging to find that there had been concrete evidence of a temple. Isis's role as Queen of the Underworld and Lady of the Words of Power make her a natural for the wizarding world. But post Hogwarts, Goddess worship definitely went into a decline until the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn tried to revive it and alchemy in Victorian London. I was picturing a Harry and the Veil of Isis title for the seventh book.
I wanted to add the the high feast day of Isis coincided with Samhain because that was when Sirius rose in the Southern Hemisphere and was the signal that the Nile was going to flood. Her second feast day was on the Spring Equinox, when Sirius set. Samhain being interesting because it is the night the Potters died. Maybe it is coincidence.

Yeah how is it that lupin was so sure that sirius was dead so suddenly. As far as i know lupin has never worked for the ministry they'd never let a werewolf in the MoD, so it stands to reason that that was the first time that lupin had been into the DoM. Yet as soon as sirius went through it lupin resigned himself to sirius's death so i think lupin knows more about the function of the veil and the voices that come from behind it.

Perhaps the veil (and i'm saying this off the top of my head) has a double somewhere just like the vanishing cabinets with the space inbetween housing the ghosts of the dead Oh and i'll say this if you die as soon as you enter it, what a great place to put a horcrux, not that i think there is one there but if there were how would tou get your hands on it

What a good read. Your research was brilliant. JKR's books are like an archieologist dig.

If the veil is used for study, then you would need to enter it to study it, right? (mentioned by other posters) How other way would you be able to study it ? Maybe you need something to anchor yourself before you enter? Lupin says he's gone, but does that mean dead? Does it say anywhere that he is actually dead, or are they assuming he is dead? Maybe someone will be able to retrieve him? They could use his help. I'd like to hear from Sirius in some capacity.

Thank you. You see, Hades, had a Helmet of Invisibility that he wore when he wanted to leave his realm. I was thinking that the reason Dumbledore might have wanted to borrow James's cloak was that one needed to be wearing an Invisibility Cloak to pass through the veil and return. Course there is no canon to back that up, just conjecture on my part.
Rowling said that she killed Sirius,
"She says this about writing the death in book 5: JKR: "Yeah. Well I had re-written the death, re-written it and that was it. It was definitive. And the person was definitely dead. And I walked into the kitchen crying and Neil said to me, 'What on earth is wrong?' and I said, 'Well, I've just killed the person.' Neil doesn't know who the person is. But I said, 'I've just killed the person.' And he said, 'Well, don't do it then.' I thought, 'a doctor' you know, and I said 'Well it just doesn't work like that. You are writing children's books, you need to be a ruthless killer.'"
Harry has to go on alone.

Thank you Redwitch. I guess that settles that. Sirius is dead.

Also, when you take into consideration the alchemy theory of the 3 colours of red; white; and black. Sirius = black; Albus = white; Reubus = red.
Sirius and Albus are dead and Reubus Hagrid is next.



Very good conjecture! That makes more sense than anchoring or tethering oneself, before entering. What can one do when there is no canon to support it. One must then make an educated guess, which you have done, very nicely. One must try to think like the author, which can be very daunting and challenging.

Ok, so Sirius is dead. Who said that means he can't come back? I'm pretty sure he'll make his way back, somehow, in the next book. Next question, Where does the veil lead? Any guesses?

Jo does. (here)

I don't think i made myself clear...he could come back as a ghost or something of JKR's invention. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

It has been made pretty clear through Nearly Headless Nick that Sirius won't be coming back as a ghost, and really there isn't really a good reason for him to reappear, particularly when Jo is going to such efforts to kill off every parent figure to Harry, anyone who Harry might obey without question, so I don't think there is any reason for Sirius to come back.

True. I think I understand how you feel about this topic....so you think thats it then. he's gone. hm. lets agree to disagree on this one.

It is what I think rather than how I feel. Bringing back Sirius has no value to the plot with the possible exception of flashbacks to backstory, such as the full story of the emnity between him and Severus.
My view on the veil is that it is a one-way gateway to the afterlife, used to study the mysteries of death.

twwwwweeeeet!

This thread is about the VEIL and not if Sirius will come back. Please confine your discussion to aspects of the veil only - or this thread will be closed.

hpaddict - LL Mod

It has to be a two way gateway or there is no coming back with information.
If you look at the quotes below, I think Harry will communicate in some way with Sirius. Is that important to the room with the veil? Possibly, because that is where Sirius went. Even though it is not likely to be built on the ruins of the Roman temple of Isis, she is still the Queen of the UnderWorld and a witch and Sirius is her star and the Thames is her river. Maybe Luna will be his guide. And the mirror will instruct him how to enter in.

"SiriuslyLovinSirius: If we ever see Sirius again, what form will he be in?
JK Rowling replies -> I couldn't possibly answer that for fear of incriminating myself."

"Kelpie_8: Will the two way mirror Sirius gave Harry ever show up again?
JK Rowling replies -> Ooooo good question. There's your answer."

"Section: F.A.Q.
Why did Harry have to forget the mirror he had been given by Sirius in 'Order of the Phoenix'?

I can’t give a full answer to this, because it is relevant to books six and seven. However, the short answer is that Harry was determined never to use the mirror, as is clearly stated in chapter 24: ‘he knew he would never use whatever it was’. For once in Harry’s life, he does not succumb to curiosity, he hides the mirror and the temptation away from himself, and then, when it might have been useful, he has forgotten it.

The mirror might not have helped as much as you think, but on the other hand, will help more than you think. You’ll have to read the final books to understand that!

No it doesn't. It is clear that sound comes through fairly indistinctly from the far side of the veil, and that people can go into the gateway, but that does not mean that people can come back through the gateway, or that you can get anything from the sounds without a lot of study, so we don't know Harry can get any useful information via the veil (and we don't know the unspeakables got anything useful from their studies anyway).
Also the quotes you give are perfectly consistent with Sirius appearing in a flashback, and the mirrors used for some form of one or two way communication this side of the veil.

True, we don't know if the Unspeakables learned anything. They don't seem to report to anyone or write books. However, if Harry's journey includes a trip behind the veil, perhaps it is one of the qualities on the Invisibility Cloak that it allows a two way passage. It would be consistant with the Classical Literature that Jo draws on and would make the Cloak's return significant or even crucial. Of course, if you could visit the land of the Dead, why not speak to your parents or Dumbledore? Why Sirius? I am raising this because I know there are holes in the argument. If Harry could go behind the veil and see his family again, why would he ever even come back? It would be a shame to invent a mysterious room like that and have no other use for it than as a battle ground. Harry had a hard time accepting Sirius's death because of the odd way that he died and the lack of a corpse. I think he might try to contact him and, as this is where he disappeared, it seems natural to go there to look for him. Perhaps he will use a set of mirrors like the one Sirius gave him, slid one past the veil and hope Sirius picks it up and talks to him.

From the Lexicon:


An ancient, crumbling stone archway, unsupported by any surrounding wall.
Sounds like the Ministry build up around this, like it was already there, had existed before. The entrance to the temple of Isis.

The cloak hides you from those around you, but otherwise it is like any other clothing, so it is highly unlikely you could use it to get back through the veil any more than you could use it to sneak past dementors or get over an age line.

I think what's troubling about the veil is that it seems kind of like cheating. We all go through the process of being born, the process of living our lives, and then the process of death. To die without the process involved seems weird and removed from the human condition. Frankly, I think that's why Sirius' death smarts so much.. the removal of a favorite character in such an abrupt and complete way.

theredwitch- I really like your posts and find them very informative :)

One curiosity I have is why all the stone benches around it? It reminds me of a class room (and Jo did say the room was for study) from college, but I kinda assumed that the people that could glean anything from it would be someone "atttuned" to death in some way, like a medium. That seems like a pretty specialized skill, and so I am kind of shocked at the number of benches that the room's description indicates- that's alot of people...

That is why the description of it sounds like it was built around the ruins of a temple.

I agree... it does sound ancient and therefore the temple theory seems plausible. So, do you think that the number of benches there has to do with a large "religious" body? Do we think that there was a "teacher" who stood up on the podium and communicated with souls beyond the veil, and then spoke to the collective, or do we think that each person studied the veil individually?

Boy, I don't know. If it was a temple there would be a priest or priestess and the image of the goddess would be behind the veil. We can make some guesses as to where she got some of her material but for sure she did not take everything, just what she needed to make her story work and ignored the rest. If she was thinking of the old Roman temple at all, it would not have been very large because the Roman population in London was never very big and Boudeceia cut off the heads of the ones left behind and threw them into the Thames about 17 years after the settlement started and when the Romans left, the city was left virtually uninhabited for some time until after King Arthur's time when the Anglo Saxons started living there again.

I agree with you completely.

I 'm not sure about the veil. Well, of course I can't be sure, but I'm not even sure what I think.

This may be the wrong place to put this, and there probably isn't a connection, but the veil reminds me of a verse in Amazing Grace:

Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess, within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.