If the HP series was written as books for adults marketed to adults from the beginning, how would the books change? Could the perspective change? Would we see things like sex and violence portrayed in a more direct manner? Would we see things in the Wizarding world we normally wouldn't see? I am generally referring to Books 3-7 here (as Books 1 & 2 are more "kid-oriented" than the others) with a special emphasis on HBP and DH.

To be honest, I think the books would still be the same but may have less fans because I dont think most adults would be into it except for a handful of them. There may be more swearing but if Jo was still the same as she is with the HP books now it wouldnt change much. Maybe instead of Harry being a teen Jo might have made him into an adult or something though

Very good question! I think there'd be a few "mhmhmh" moments here and there... Like the prefects bathroom in GoF.

Nah... actually, I don't think much could have been changed. Harry is on a great age to be a hero. It would be hard for a toddler to ride a thestral, and it'd be equally hard for a bald, pot-bellied man to make so many evasive maneuvers on a broomstick.

No, I don't even think there'd be more sex or violence or whatever makes "adult" literature. It's a good story, so it attracts readers of all ages already as it is.

Personally, I dont think that it would have been too different. Sure, SS & CoS are different from the rest of HP in that they are shorter and it is kind of clear that they're aimed at younger readers just from the style of writing, although having said that the stories in the first two books are not fluffy bunnies (no Lupin puns intended) There's plenty death and violence and fear.
What amazes me is that even since DH, I have seen people say that HP is "obviously aimed at little children" & I respect that we all have our own opinions but, the way I see it, HP stopped being a kid's book at the end of CoS, if it ever was a kids-only book. And certainly from PoA on, it became a much more adult inclusive book. In my opinion it's appealed to adults from the get go, as much as it has to kids.
The content of the books is *adult* on so many levels. If the series was written for adults, & still written by JKR, I dont see a lot of differences sneaking in. A lot of every day life issues are addressed like relationships, alcohol, home-life ... And, there is a huge wealth of reference to astronomy, astrology, tarot, religions, runes, linguistics, mythology which until HP was reserved for academics or touched on briefly in some fantasy books, but JKR has brought these things in big time.
There is abuse, torture, murder, terror ... so, the way I see it, if JKR had written an adult-oriented series it wouldnt be so difficult. I dont see her writing Harry Potter as some foul-mouthed knife wielding violent homicidal maniac with graphic violence or cursing, because that simply is not JKR.
And, HP is not a kids book in the sense that it's about young kids doing young kids stuff like going to charm school and putting on make-up or playing baseball in the park. It's a universe of young adults and adults in a very *adult* world, like the younger characters are not spared or protected from experiencing the horrors of abuse and violence, or witnessing death and cruelty. They're being shown life as it is in all its horror & not being given the *kid glove* treatment. And, because of the balance of younger people & older people, it's a realistic world & not a kids universe so in my opinion it is as much an adult book as a kids book.

What?!?! You mean, it's not for adults???
Come now! Surely you've heard the Freudian interpretation of CoS? It's all about SEX.
And wasn't the violence of the last 5 books on a par with any of the Bond movies?
I sometimes think that what passes for adult fiction is really quite childish. And I believe Philip Pullman has said much the same thing. I'm just not sure where to find that quote just now.

It's not written for adults? Really?

What does that mean exactly? In film we distinquish movies from simply Kid fair to family drama because of content. I remember tearing up at the first HP movie--clearly designed for a young audience when Harry looks into the Mirror or Erised. There are disturbing moments with violence, hints of child neglect, racism, genocide, home invasion--some very real and some very scary elements are in Harry Potter. It's not exactly Green Eggs and Ham... and I like reading that too, except all they young ones are too old. I sometimes wonder if we have children just to have an excuse to by Fox and Sox --just kidding.

I like thinking of HP as a family story, as that is how it was introduced into my household--something the family shared.

The books were written by an adult, but compared to this particular adult, an adult more close in age and experience to my adult children. I don't think the story would have changed much, but the POV might have.

I don't think the story would have been sexier or more erotic, simply because Jo's sense of humor leans towards bawdy, slightly irreverant, political....
She could take the chance and explore the story from an adults POV, and get darker when examining the motivations of people like the Malfoys, or Snape, or she might have delved deeper in to Sirius' depression and his relationship with his family.

There is a comic/tragic scene in the movie Brother's Grimm where the sister is dying, the one brother with magical beliefs sells the family cow and comes back with beans--Underneath the noise, you can sense Matt Damon's character love and anger at his brother, but strong, both growing at the same pace.

I think Jo hints at this kind of strength in her tales.

The best fairy tales or children tales look back at the wonders and horrors of childhood from a grown-up eye. Think of this line from Peter Pan:



(Sounds a little like James Potter..)

Or:

http://www.online-literature.com/barrie/peterpan/
The banter is of course innocent--but here are children, very much like the children in POA and GOF, having the first stirrings of attraction.
So although intended for children, I think a little adult input on the material would be wise.

I would like adult stories for some of the Grown-ups: Sirius or Lupin, Andromeda, Moody. Lily and James although their tale ends tragically, might be a fun romantic romp...

But one of the reasons I like HP is that she stays true to Harry's POV.

I don't know how much differently the stories would have been written. Certainly, if you are writing to an adult audience then you can go further in depth on subjects such as slavery, pureblood mania, the nature of good, evil, and power and so on. As it is, JKR just scratches the surface of these topics, which are things young children can barely understand and older kids may just be getting a handle on as their experience changes.

I wonder if we would still sit here and debate the different aspects of the books the way we do? (Probably!) And as for the wealth of reference to astronomy, astrology, tarot, religions, runes, linguistics, and mythology, did JKR expect us adults to tear the books to shreds and actually delve deeper into these subjects? Probably not...many children will probably read fantasy in the future and think, "They stole this from Harry Potter!"

I think that by touching on all of these aspects, HP is a primer of sorts to a wider world of learning for all of us, children and adults. How many of us would ever have researched tarot, astronomy, genetics, Nazism, mythology of all descriptions, alchemy, runes on our own? These books, and these forums, have forced us to show up with our thinking caps on and think about these stories.

I think that perhaps the characters would be a little older--late teens or so. Then we might see more sex and violence as we do in other fantasy stories (which are generally tame, for the most part, unless you read George RR Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series).


Actually, no. What's that all about? I haven't heard that one before, not even jokingly.




Gotta love Pullman. Is this the quote?

I think that might be dead-on. Adult fiction tends to stay specific to a particular subject, generating an interest merely through its content, as a reinforcement of that interest. For example, medical mysteries might only interest those who are versed in medical terminology or situations, and look how scientifically minded people are quick to point out the scientific inconsistancies in Star Trek. It can be a "pat on the back" or "nod" to having "mastered" a large amount of knowledge in a specific subject - and a feeling of being "qualified" to discuss it and understand the nuances on a higher level.

Literature that is geared towards a child's mindset is more encompassing - delving into many subjects at the same time, because to a child, nearly everything is new and exciting and worthy of notice. "Growing up" is when we discover our preferences and to become specialized - much like Wendy in assuming the role of "mother" to the Lost Boys. In focusing and determining what is "important" in our lives, we can lose the wonder that sparks the imagination and makes all things possible in a great big world.

The popularity of Harry Potter among adults can be an indication that even we adults realize that something is "missing" in our lives, and we are reaching out towards that wonder that makes childhood so magical. Over the past few generations, education has become simply a means to an end, and not the "user's guide" to a lifelong journey of discovery - Don't Panic!!! All is not lost. There is plenty to uncover as we follow Harry along on his adventures - we just might rediscover ourselves on the way.

cooool thread.... The other day i was reading exorcist and there were parts that explained some extremely disgusting rituals... To me it was more horrifying than the horror part of it.... i think if HP was meant for adults then detailed explanation of making horcruxes would have been there rather than hermione skimming through the pages of the darkest of the dark arts book......

Well, I'm not sure disgusting details are what mark a book as "adult". Unless one is looking for that porno designation "adult". LOL.

Indeed, in DH, Harry hears some things and reads some things that sully the memory of Dumbledore. These stories contain half-truths and slanted truth. And Harry must struggle to overcome their negative effect.

I consider this a very mature attitude in DH. We are told a tale where there is no certitude. We receive five versions of Dumbledore's youth before hearing from the Dumbledore who's in Harry's head. And not one of these versions --even the one from the KC Dumbledore-- can be called definitive. I find that very mature.

Lets face it, If JKR had sat down at the very begining to write an Adult book series, she'd never have set it in a school and so the stories would be inherantly different from the begining.

No coming of age, no first love, no search for truth, no strength of youth rebelling against maturity. Different in every aspect in fact

And to market it as an Adult Fantasy would have limited it's appeal so much that it would never have become the success that it did. She may well have only ever written the one and probably never sold the film rights.

But it doesn't matter in the slightest, because she did write this wonderful master piece with children in mind, the fact that we adults like it so much is a testament to her wonderful story telling skills and should be counted as a bonus.

do you mean all those stuffs about Ariana ?? if it had been an adult book she would've surely mentioned what those muggle boys did to her......

I'm not certain about that: THE COLOR PURPLE begins when the lead characters are children--what happens to her as child and teenager, how she grows into the woman she becomes is dependent upon seeing the character as a child.

It is the same for the novel, Avalon, where we see the sisters of Arthur as teenagers and children.

And consider the Bible--there are actually child editions of the book, but the favored stories for children are Noah's Ark, where most of mankind except one man's family are destroyed--I remember reading the version where the children of the Fallen Angels cried out to their fathers but their fathers couldn't help them when I was young....

I don't think there exist a clear cut line between what is Child lit or adult lit, when it comes to fantasy and novels-even some fairy tales have some questionable content. I think HP is squarely in the realm of "family entertainment".

-There will not be schools, I think.
The story would be about adults, and have adults problems.

-There will be sex scenes and more violence.

So, is this what is meant by adult fiction or stories about adults with adult problems? Is it all explicit sex, gratuitous violence and child abuse???

No wonder children stop reading in their teens. That sounds so immature, even from a child's viewpoint.

Well, it sounds self-indulgent, actually. And, frankly, few of the adult novels I read contain that stuff. I must not be reading the "good" stuff.

I don't think it means gratitus sex or violence but more just not holding back. Like for instance "Ron said a word Harry was sure he wouldn't say in front of his mother" would turn into us actualy hearing the word Ron says. It's more the sense of holding back I think is the point really. I've read plenty of fantasy books that either fade to black and imply sex or make the sex a more stream of thoughts and emotions if that is what the Author wants to express about the situation.

If DH had been purely for adults we may have learned when Remus and Tonks consumated their relationship, not the details just more the date. I think Jo did a fine job however writing a story that is compatible for younger audiences and still not "insulting the intelligence" to adult readers. Though honestly DH was pretty scary, graphic and even a little gratitous. I mean Stephen King is a very good author but his storys are very adult.

I am pretty sure I have seen a Harry Potter book that was an adult version, I dont know what is different with that version and the normal version though.

I think we would see more romanace.... thats about it though I mean I think adults woudl be into the series if it as the normal version anyways, I mean there already are tons of adults that are into the normal books. I dont think there would be any sex in the series because it would be gross I mean the main characters are under 18 years old.

The harry potter series transcends ages. Adults may interpret things one way, while children see it in a totally different way--it can be read and enjoyed equally on both levels. I don't think that you could really call it a "children's series" or "adult's series"

To be honest I don't think you could make the books more adult without changing them completely. Of course you could put in more swear words, rather than skirting around them, but that only makes it less suitable for children without actually improving it for adults. (It would also dilute the power of one of the best lines in the books "NOT MY DAUGHTER, YOU BITCH!" if there was more explicit swearing). But if you start putting in more emotions and the physical side of relationships (that still wouldn't be sex, because I doubt Harry's relationship with Ginny had got that far), it moves away from being an adventure book and starts being something else.

If the series was written for adults what would be different? I do think the swear words would be said instead of implied. No, the books would not be littered with cussing, since it isn't implied all that much anyway.
There are some things Rowling does to make sure she's not sending children the wrong message--like underage sex or sex before marriage. Her beliefs would still be the same no matter who she's writing for, but if she is not writing for children those beliefs might not be so obvious, like she might not have made the epilogue so far in advance.

I challenge anyone on this thread to define the difference between a "children's book" and an "adult's book."

The Harry Potter books, as Stephen King so rightly says, are the Harry Potter books for adults.

The only difference is the reader's point of view. When I finished DH, I was struck by noticing that I can look at Harry Potter books either as 7 books written for children or as one book in 7 parts written for grown-ups.

i truly think they are for both. JK puts these subtle hints in there about more adult things like sex, which as a child i know i wouldnt have picked up, but now when i read it i can see these small hints. they really are for all ages, and thats what makes them special

Well I don't know if the books would be written differently if they were for adults, but to be classed as adult books I expect more than snogging would have to be going on within Hogwarts (and outside for that matter) for instance.
Perhaps Lupin would have winded up with Sirius instead of Tonks, perhaps Fleur would have gotten pregnant first and married Bill later (or not at all).
I didn't find the violence that took place in the series particularily graphic or anything either, but others might have.

But it depends on how you define 'adult books' I guess. I'm currently reading this reeally long series which is like a family story that takes place over several generations, and the style of it is very concise and it would not be difficult for kids to read it. But it also includes 'adult' elements which makes it less suitable for them.

One thing that may have been possible in a series intended for adults (though I'm not sure Rowling would have done so) is to give more detail of the historical context of the events and the social and political processes. Were house-elves always enslaved or was that something that happened as a result of wizarding seclusion? Was the active seeking-out of Muggle-born students something that has always been around or was it triggered by some event or process (such as the industrial revolution and accompanying urbanization)? Did the proportion of wizards among the population fluctuate significantly over time - for example due to differential susceptibility to contagious diseases? Or more depth on things like the nature of the Dark Arts and the varying attitudes towards them in different wizarding circles.

I think given Rowling's very quick dry wit in interviews, that had the books been written for adults we would have possibly had some sharper and more biting wit and more dark humor.

I have to reiterate what DavidEnglish was alluding to. What is your definition of adult? Certainly we have not got to the point where we are defining adults simply by their more prurient natures? Or thinking that children's lit is merely books with no sex or violence? The Potter books explore some very emotionally complex themes. If that's what adult means, then they are already adult fiction. Or perhaps JKR simply does not believe in treating children like fragile simpletons.

The problem with some adults is that they have forgotten that "fantasy" is not the sole property of children. To me, these books cannot be defined by an age group. They cannot be characterized as belonging to children or adults. Any adult who passes on the series simply because magic is too childish for them, are selling themselves short. If they are defining themselves (and their reading material) merely by their sexual behavior, then that's just sad.

I don't know if it is a definition of being an adult, but more of what many adults (by definition ) seem to do. When it comes to an adult's interest, it usually means that an adult has partially defined him or her self by and through their interests: ie. I like wine, I like independent films, I like morally upstanding people, I like socially conscious investments...etc. Adults tend to limit themselves based upon in what they find personal meaning. Children on the other hand, are more open to suggestion and haven't yet narrowed down their range of interests, making a "good book" one that addresses them as active and needed participants in the adventure that is unfolding, without prejudice.

Harry Potter, to me, is a book that speaks to the children in each of us, and "allows" that child to "come out and play" in the fresh air and sunshine, through the boundless reaches of the imagination.

I think one minor difference would be that we would've had a few more details about the adult characters' jobs and maybe a little more insight into how Molly and Arthur managed the whole issue of balancing family and career. And especially in OotP we probably would've seen a bit more of the teachers' day to day struggle with the ministry's interference at Hogwarts.

Essentially, though, I don't think the series would (or should) have been a whole lot different - just that we would have gotten a little more insight into the adult characters' lives and, like Oryx said, we would have gotten a little more info about the historical context of the events and more about how those events related to social and political issues.

Regarding my own post about getting more historical context in a book intended for adults, I realized that the kind of prequel that I would love for the HP series is a James Michener style saga set in the Potterverse. Maybe following the lines of inheritance of the invisibility cloak from Ignotus Peverell to James Potter and the resurrection stone to Morfin Gaunt. No, I don't need to know the name of each and every person in the lineages but perhaps using those families to give the reader a snapshot of what the wizarding world was going through, roughly once per century.

Someone had once written an essay, comparing Rowling's Harry Potter series to the novels of Charles Dickens. Now, whether Dickens is the superior novelist or Rowling, I couldn't care less. And the writer of the essay seemed disinterested in that topic, as well. But the writer did point out that back in the mid-to-late 1800s, Charles Dickens' stories had been enjoyed by both adults and children. In other words, entire families would gather in their homes, while one member would read a chapter or two per night, engrossing other members of each family into his stories. The writer believes that Rowling's saga has the same appeal in that all family members - whether they be adults or children - were able to enjoy her stories.

In the end, I believe the series can be enjoyed by all - regardless of age.

I think the series works well as it is, if it were specifically for adults everyone would work and while you could have fun with Manager-Snape, office floozys, and the machinations of the downtrodden, it wouldn't be as much fun for the kids and that would be a shame as many of us like to read with our children.

Sherlock Holmes is another great favorite in our household, and I've heard a rumour that JKR is working on a mystery next, so who knows?

I agree that the series works well as it is. It obviously has a lot of crossover because adults and children both enjoy it immensely. I just think that we will see a slightly different style from Rowling when she writes something specifically for an adult audience....but that's just a guess of course.

Portraying the Ministry of Magic along the lines of television's "The Office", perhaps?

Thanks,
- Acrux

It wouldn't work. For one thing, a lot of things that we can dismiss as "fantasy abuse" would be real abuse and it would stop being fun. As long as the abuse stays in the realms of children's fantasy, as with Cinderella or Snow White, we don't have to take the abuse seriously. We as adult readers don't feel the impulse, or the pressure to "do something" , to help, as we would be expected to help if this were a real life situation or presented in an adult novel.

We can shift our sympathy for the young hero to other characters who we know will not be absolved or so lucky because their names are not on the cover. We know that unlike a story written for adults about actual abuse--the child will be rescued and the abusers will get little come-uppings here and there. Jo wisely allows the Mister Weasley and later members of the Order speak up in defense of Harry to the Dursleys. But the Dursleys, though neglectful and abusive to Harry are played for laughs, and that just wouldn't work for adults.

We would have to take the Death Eaters seriously, and that's just frightening--few of can sit through something like Hotel Rwanda. It's a stellar movie, but difficult to watch.

The same with Snape--written for adults he would be clearly shown an abusive teacher, an ex-Death Eater who participated willingly in horrors: someone an adult wouldn't want within a jail cell near their children. But in children's lit, as the "Bad Boy" with a gothic romantic past, Snape is the only adult character of interest to the adult audience.

And usually adults reading children's literature dislike the child heroes. Predominately in adventure stories and fantasy the function of child heroes are to act as cheeky, precocious brats who prove that we adults are idiots. Of course, Harry is far more the most polite of child heroes, and the adults in HP are competent, they just can't be everywhere. Harry he even calls Snape "sir", only speaking up when adults are unfair, and they are often unfair. (It is of great interest that the screen writers, have Dan behave a great deal more brat-like, than Jo writes him. I was steamed in the otherwise enjoyable POA when Harry reads the Maruader's Map aloud. In the book Harry was mortified when the Map spoke up. Harry has limits--and rather than Harry pushing Snape's limit as we see in the movie, it is Snape who baits Harry in the books. Of course the visiual image is the that sticks in most people, including people who read the books mind.... Oh well...) But this doesn't matter--Harry speaks up and defends himself, which places him in the cheeky, brat catogorie for many adult readers.

Maime the Hunter, there is adult fantasy where abuse is real - see for example Richard Adams' Shardik and its prequel, Maia. In the latter the protagonist's step-mother sells her into sex slavery. The evil step-parents wouldn't have been funny but would have been possible - see also some fanfiction where the Dursleys manage to cause Harry lasting physical disability (though Harry is never returned to them after that - so the story of his protection has to be modified somewhat). Adams doesn't have any reformed (or semi-reformed) slave-traders in his world so there is no Snape equivalent but I don't think one would have been impossible.

I'm not certain what you mean--as I did say in adult fantasy the abuse would be real, but do you mean the adult soft porn type stories like Angelique In Love, where the young heroine is kidnapped by her masked lover, held in white Slavery, all kinds of things happen but as it is intended as erotica what we would normally consider abuse is acceptable to the audience?

I'm not certain Harry Potter would translate into that kind of --um--fantasy--although there are more than one or two Rated X Harry Potter fanfictions online that very much resembles the Dark Hunter series I enjoy--that is I enjoy the Dark Hunter series, --these stories upset Jo who is worried for her audience-- comes very close.

(By cutting the quote I dont intend to be *taking a sentence out of context* but, this sentence is what I would like to refer to, thus snipping the rest of the quoted post)

In my opinion, Snape is one of the most complex adult characters in HP but I do not believe that he is the only adult of interest to adult readers. Pretty much all of the characters have great depths or layers, with past lifes that twist and turn, like in the case of Albus Dumbledore who went from borderline DE material to the champion of Muggles and Magical Creatures, his words of wisdom bearing great truths, and being a *grandfather* figure that we could turn to for advice without being lectured.
Lupin in himself is a fascinating character, being an awesome teacher, a strong person having overcome adversity to be a great guy. He also represented so many things to so many people, there is something truly magical in the way JKR wrote him that he is able to represent a *minority character* to people from diverse and varied communities.
Sirius is so endearing that he became like a godfather to us all. He has such a full (yet short) life that a whole book could be written just about him. A Marauder, wrongly accused & imprisoned, his friends murdered, getting to meet his godson, being in the Order, dying for Harry ...
LV, as much as I despise everything about him, and can not feel an ounce of sympathy or sorrow for him, is all the same an interesting character. He is sane, yet totally evil, he is consumed by his desire to be immortal which leads him on a long road to achieve his goal. He may be detestable but, is an interesting character by what he represents and believes in, and what chilling and disturbing acts he will commit simply to further his own goals.
Hagrid. In many ways a big kid (literally lol) with a childlike love and trust, yet with an all too real awareness of the cruelty of the world and people's prejudices. He has so many layers and depths of compassion and understanding.
I could go on about each character ... and these are just the main characters. What of Frank Bryce, about the only courageous Muggle we see, or Nicholas Flamel who we never see but who's character is of enormous interest, because he worked with DD, lived to be 665 years old, has a real place in history (like, he truly existed).
To me, there are few adult characters that are without interest. Each could have a book all their own, their own story and history because there is so much detail, so much history, so many characteristics that we are told about. They are not just characters, they are three-dimensional people because JKR has given them such depth and strength. And, because they are so real, they present as much interest to kids and adults alike, although everyone will percieve each character from their own point of view. Like, a child will look at Minerva McGonagall differently than an adult will, but this would be the case in any situation, that people look at people differently.

Smully sits in her chair at the job interview thinking "not a floozy, not a floozy, don't categorize me as a floozy, please... anything but the floozies...."

No, "The Office" makes me physically ill :tossescookies: (no smiley for THAT I see )

I like what Moose_Starr has written about the adult characters in this series. My point is that if the series is written specifically to an adult audience, it shouldn't be set in Middle School/High School. Arthur Conan Doyles great series is centered on a job as an example. I guess murder mysteries are so popular as a genre, though, because they take you away from the boring every day, like cubicleland. Too bad we weren't able to spend more time with Artur in magical cubicleland, or with Moody during his many adventures.

I'm a Sirius fan myself, Moose_Star, but if we're speaking the HP reading audience in general: put Severus Snape in your Internet search engine....as compared to Sirius Black and note the glaring difference in the of discussions, websites. What I mean to say is there no popular fan book at Barnes and Nobles or Border's shelves debating the loyalty of Remus Lupin.

I dont doubt this (& I'm not picking on you here lol) But, whereas Lupin's *interest* isnt in where his loyalties lie, it is in the huge difficulties that he's overcome and still has to face, the prejudice, the fact of still being a werewolf, yet he is a gentle and compassionate person, he understands people and cares about them.
But also, he represents so many things. He's kind of like a carte blanche or Scrabble's blank letter piece, in that he has come to be viewed by many communities or *minorities* as representing them. Even if JKR didnt write him that way, that is how Lupin is perceived. And, people have been inspired by Lupin because he has overcome difficulties, or learned to live despite his furry little problem in the real world alongside everyone else. He still faces prejudice but, he deals with it. He still laughs & teaches & fights & loves. He lives his life. And, it's like he's become a symbol for people with *illness* or from *ethnic background* or *religion* or whatever, that he is their champion, JKR wrote him just for them, he fits their community & symbolizes them. That in itself is maybe as interesting as Lupin himself.

Oh I think Lupin's is a great story--I don't know if there is enough there to create a novel--;et alone a series without wandering into some very off-beat or erotic adult subject matter--because he's a werewolf. I think Sirius's life story would make a good adult novel, fantasy or straight out gothic tale, complete with the young aristocrat, who is both proud of his bloodline, but shamed by their behavior or the kind of entitlements they exploit, rather than using their position for the betterment of the community. He's rather like Lord Byron, right down to death of his best friend breaking his heart--but not his spirit --and there is that self-destructive recklessness. Like Lord Byron, Sirius ties himself to what appears the losing, but 'just" side of civil war, although Byron choose a war on foreign soil.

I rather like Arthur--I think of some light comedy, or quiet domestic family fare which feature a thoroughly decent man at the center of things. It's easier in a dramatic sceanrio to see this decent man as a child first, or supporting the child lead. He's like Matthew in Anne of Green Gables--you absolute love him, but his character is in a supporting role.

Most of the abuse in Adams' books is intended to be horrifying. He shows the depth of human cruelty with the slave trader Genshed who kidnaps children, force-marches them across the country and mutilates them before selling them to serve as beggars, but he also criticizes the political system that justifies milder, regulated forms of slavery under which people like Genshed hide, and eventually has his protagonist, an innocent who becomes roped into the position of figurehead of the political elite (and thus bears the responsibility for the slave trade, whether of the regulated or the illegal variety) fall into the hands of Genshed, saved by a rebel army and eventually found an orphanage for children in all forms of abusive and neglectful situations.

Maia is more ambivalent - because while she is abused she is also cared for - at least physically, and while she is used politically she also gains influence. (The slavery stage covers about a third of the book, the part I found most powerful is a bit later on when she has to make a choice between loyalty to rebels seeking freedom for their country to the plight of peasants who fear the devastation that may be caused by prolonged warfare.)

I haven't read the books, but that was my point. No many people are horrified or even concerned that Harry was thrown into a cupboard as a fifteen months old child. As this is a children's story we know he will survive, adjust someone will rescue him. She allows Harry his longing, but gives him a sense of humor, he's not afriad of the Dursleys , so we are not overwhelmed with pity towards him or anger towards the Dursleys. The Durseleys are in the story to become more powerless as Harry becomes more powerful.

Written for adults, the rescue would have been different, the emphasis on an adult-- Dumbledore, Hagrid, the Weasley-- rescuing the victimized child. Harry's condition would have resembled the real life cases we read of where children are stuck in closets, underfed and neglected. Harry would have spent the first few weeks in Saint Mungo's...you simply do not return a child, after rescuing him from an abusive home to the same home unless there is some rehab...

So the story line that Harry has to remain with Petunia and Vernon, simply would not work in a adult novel--because no adult would send Harry back to Petunia and Vernon.

I see what you are saying now Maime, I was afraid you were trivializing child abuse and thought that terribly out of character for you

I'm not certain of what to make of books of horrifying abuse, I get enough of that on the news.

I was thinking more about what Moose_Starr said about Lupin's story. That could have potential, there are so many great characters in these books, Lupin was probably pretty resiliant and strong, being bounced from job to job, no fault of his. Equanimity is mostly an earned characteristic I think, and not an easily earned one either. I'm reminded of a taped interview with Count Basie I once heard, the man had spent his adult life playing music in establishements that would never have allowed him in the door otherwise, he was suffering terribly due to ill health at the time. And yet he was just so kind and his humour was so gentle with the rather clueless reporter who was interviewing him, he just soared, rather like his music!

I've heard she's working on a murder mystery, that's an ever popular genre, but it's been done a lot. Whatever she writes next, I hope it's a nice long book! I LOVED Order of the Phoenix!

I'd still like to see a book about a Moody-like character (please... please... please Jo...?)

I read POS as a seventeen year old, and finished DH as a twenty-three year old. I've only seen it from the lens of an adult (albeit a young one).

I don't know what it would look like had it been written for adults, but it was a story about kids. It would be quite difficult to add sex into the lives of 11-year-olds, and even for some years after that.

There are lies, deceit, betrayal, racism, insecurities, hatred, friendship, love, honour, cowardice, courage and truth in the series, to the highest degree. The books don't insult your intelligence, they have a remarkable manner in showing that the world is not black or white, as Snape and Dumbledore have their good side and bad past, respectively. Voldemort is truly evil, and almost as evil as any character as I can think in any story I've ever heard, read or watched, and possibly more evil. Harry is an 11 year old orphan who faces death constantly. The books really doesn't pull any punches. THe first two were slightly lighter, but things became darker after POA.

I don't know if the series deserves the 'children' label, and I've ceased to care. I think the stories are just right for me. They touch upon aspects of life that resonate strongly with me. That's all that means to me.

I might be in a minority, but I was quite horrified at Harry's treatment, and thought it most insane that Dumbledore sent him back to th Dursleys. I gave little thought that he would somehow survive, especially in POS before the wizarding status was revealed. However, I'll admit as the years went on, my fear of Harry suffering under the Dursleys reduced as Harry became more and more capable of fending for himself, and should things go bad, Harry had the wand, while the Dursleys did not. Plus the Weasleys, Dumbledore, Lupin, , Mad-Eye etc... were around to keep him protected from the worse situations.

Your second point, however, I agree with. Harry would have certain issues if the stories were more realistic, due to the effects of the victimisation.

Hmm... but for the last point, if the stakes were so high that the fate of a nation rested on one boy being returned to the home of those who mistreated him (while of course being watched from afar), then I think it might actually be concievable that an adult would return Harry to the Dursleys even in an adult novel. The idea of 'the greater good' coming out.

Oh--that I think Jo dealt with to the sastifaction of adults and young people. I see your point: In history for example, the young Elizabeth I cannot escape peril as a child and teenager. The adults in her life had no control over the people in her family who were a threat to her--her brother, her sister, her cousins, and the people behind them. But in the case of HP--Dumbledore had the means to curb the abuse--and we see this effort made, not by Dumbledore but by the Weasleys. We learn Ron, Fred, and George "rescue" Harry only the day before their parents were posed to do the very same thing--only in a more direct and mature manner. Harry runs away in POA, because the Weasleys are gone, but he has the entire community ready for him. In GOF, Arthur confronts Vernon, man to man about his apparant lack of concern. Then in OOP we see the Order acting in Sirius' stead to let the Dursley's know someone is looking out for Harry and ready to stand up for him.
I was angered by the thought of anyone treating a child as Petunia treated her nephew, but in an adult novel, Harry might not have resuce--or timely rescue. The scars of the abuse would not be internal only. For example Harry is afraid that Molly might not like him if she finds out he gave Fred and George seed money, is a sign of Petunia's treatment of him.

<Bolding mine>

Really? I don't see that at all. What do others think?

Given what many people from comparatively normal and well adjusted families go through in their teenage years Harry seems to be remarkably unaffected by his abusive and emotionally deprived upbringing, as is, perhaps, appropriate for books written with younger readers in mind.

As I see it Harry's fear in this matter is the natural reaction of a younger person doing (or at least really wanting to do) something that seems no big deal to them but which they know is strongly objected to/opposed by an older, respected authority figure in their lives. Deep down I suspect that Harry knows this won't destroy his relationship with Molly when it eventually becomes known but the fear is, nevertheless, still present.

It is easy to forget that fear is (in my experiance) irrational and even when it is not justified it is still *there*, happening inside your head and why on earth should that mean that it is not real?

- Acrux

I see your point. Perhaps in an adult novel, Harry would've suffered longer before being rescued.

I found myself to be very perplexed by Dumbledore's apparent unwillingness to step in and make sure Harry was as comfortable with the Dursley's as possible. As much as I've pondered it over the past many years, it puzzles me. Surely he could've had a word with the Dursley's?

But I've come to the idea that Dumbledore didn't want to step in before Harry was eleven, one reason is what I've elaborated below, and the second was to prevent Harry from even gaining any hint of the magical world. The first chapter of the first book shows that Dumbledore wants Harry to have no contact with the wizarding world, due to his fame.

But what about after Harry starting attending Hogwarts? I think Dumbledore thought that by threatening the Dursleys, they might resent Harry to the extent that they would kick Harry out. From what I've gathered, the magic and the living conditions had to occur with the willing acceptance of the Dursleys. They had to voluntarily accept Harry in the house. Harry had to see that to even consider 4 Privet Drive as a home, otherwise the entire protection magic would've not existed. Dumbledore couldn't risk making the tensions worse with further threats. When Harry was ordered to get out by Vernon D. in OotP, Dumbledore makes a request to Petunia, almost imploring her to keep her word and take care of Harry. In the most important timing, when a threat would've been very effective in the short-term, Dumbledore takes extra caution in almost asking Petunia to remember her word.

Perhaps Dumbledore didn't want to destroy the Dursleys decision to keep Harry. But that wouldn't excuse the Weasley or the Order's threats of retaliation should the Dursleys mistreat Harry. Wasn't the Weasleys and the Order doing precisely the opposite thing to what I suspect are Dumbledore's intentions, by threatening the Dursleys? It seemed so. However, perhaps the Dursleys, through Petunia, understood that Dumbledore was the 'big fish', and the Weasleys nor the Order would go far enough without Dumbledore's orders in actually turning their threats into actions. On thinking about that, it wouldn't then explain that the Dursleys were very frightened of the Weasleys/Order and seemed to have taken the threats as serious.

Through Voldemort's life in the orphanage, young Tom Riddle turned into a bitter person, who already engaged in acts that can be considered immoral, possibly evil. Harry had a similar upbringing to Riddle, the lack of family relationships. I wondered, didn't Dumbledore fear that Harry might go down the same path? But I realised that this really isn't a black or white issue. There are many orphans in the world, and I'd bet in the wizarding one too, not to mention people with poor relationships with their families. They don't necessarily need to turn into a hero (Harry), or a completely evil person (Voldy).

I'm speculating, of course. The books don't go into Dumbledore's mind when it comes to how Harry is treated. Sure, we all understand why Harry is with the Dursley's, but we aren't given a clear reason as to Dumbledore's failure to step in, or if he even did, to alleviate Harry's living conditions.