Harry, Ron, and Hermione -- all born around 1980 -- came into "The World of HP" decades after J. R. R. Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings" trilogy was published. Now I doubt that Dudley would ever have touched the books, even if they were in the house (unless to be used as a projectile against his favorite "punching bag"). Harry might have gravitated more to the books if he could grab hold of a copy, and if he could discipline himself to sit down and read (?) them. The Council of Elrond could have given him some ideas for Dumbledore's Army; not to mention some strategies for dealing with Horcruxes (Horcri) and Voldemort.

Ron's never heard of them; except with regards to his father's raids and collections of Muggle Artifacts.

Hermione, on the other hand, can tell you on which page of The Fellowship Gandalf the Grey complains about "Cold Feet." The battle scenes, perhaps in her opinion, are absolutely barbaric. Maybe this is where she developed such a keen interest in House Elves??? What would she think of Eowyn's love for Aragorn, and her great desire for valor (death in battle)? And what of the "magic" of the "Little People", Hobbits? (Bilbo's Prologue explains that they have no known magic.) Would Hermione suspect that there might really be such a thing as an Ent? Or is that just silly story stuff?

Did Tom Riddle read? What about this muggle publication (with made up languages -- very unlike Parseltongue)?

(I bet Dumbledore loved it -- couldn't wait to try the ring on himself?)

Dood...that sounds great n all, and I think I agree with everything you've said, but it makes me sad because now I'm thinking JK stole the idea!

It depends. Tolkien in the HP universe could be a wizard historians whose books were accidently leaked to the Muggle community.

And there is that quote about the War book : Catch-22, People who weren't there think it's fiction. So maybe that is how Tolkien's stories are viewed in the real world--real history that Muggles think of myths--like Merlin and King Arthur.

I am not sure. We are talking of two fantasy series here, two stories that belong to the same genre. King Arthur and Merlin's tale survived over the centuries, so it can be considered magical history. But Tolkien created an entire universe which is separate from ours, this is what Rowling did a few decades later. In my opinion, these two worlds have certain common traits, but they are different. The fact that there isn't much distance between them in terms of time makes it difficult for them to be linked in the way it is suggested in this topic.

The influences of Tolkien on Rowling are evident, esp in the first book, one cannot avoid the parallel between the Philosopher's Stone and the ring, or the three friends that form a kind of fellowship. But there's nothing bad in that. And I couldn't say that Rowling "stole" the idea, she was just inspired by a fantasy tale to create another fantasy tale.

I somehow can't see Hermione reading "The Lord of the Rings", basically because there are different principles and rules of magic involved in the "Harry Potter" series.

I think Hermione would be shocked at the Battle Scenes. Considering Helm's Deep, with Uruk-Hai gladly using anything they have to hand to batter their Elvish and Human foes to death, it's great, but gruesome.

Ron would love the battle scenes and yawn at everything else! Which is, by the way, 89% of the Book.

Harry would be amazed at Gandalf's Power.
I love the bit in RoTK, when Gandalf just says to the most powerful Wizard ever,
"Your Staff is broken." After shrugging off a fireball aswell.

I think Gandalf would murder Voldemort, he'd just sidestep Avada Kedavra, before impaling him on his sword.

But Tolkien went far beyond what most writers did, and so did Rowling (but to a lesser degree), and created a World that if you understand it, can become a dream of Heroic Last Stands and Willing Charges to the Death. I think that would have inspired the Harry Potter Kids.

Ron would probably think that a hobbit was some creepy little creature i'm sure

That is not what I meant.

Take Nicolas Flamel. There was a real Nicolas Flamel and it is said he did search for the Sorcerer's Stone. He and John Dee, another alchemist, show up in fantasy novels and movie often as long lived characters. What I meant is, Jo could easily create a sitiuation in her Universe where Tolkien was a wizard historian, but maybe a his works were leaked to the Muggle populace, or on the way to Hogwarts a load of the books ended up in a Muggle bookstore and were sold out before they could be retreived. Rather try to remove them, the wizard world allowed the Muggles to believe that the stories were fictions.

In other words, Jo could use the books as she does the legend of Nicolas Flamel--a plot device.

My guess is that both the Evans and Dursley (Vernon's & Marge's parents) families would have owned the trilogy, as Tolkien was a noted professor at Oxford. Although his "story" is told in fantasy, it is largely based upon his experiences as a soldier in WWI. By rights, The Lord of the Rings would be a very respected work of modern fiction, with many ethical themes presented.

Vernon and Petunia, however, seem to want "nothing" to do with fantasy (magical or otherwise). If so, then perhaps any book of the series found at 4 Privet Drive would belong to a cohort of Dudley's, or perhaps a forgotten library book.

Colin Creevy has probably read The Hobbit at least 11 times. Lily probably read the series all the way through; Petunia probably got through the first half of The Fellowship. Snape (muggle father) may have read them -- and probably rewrote them to suit his interests.

Madam Pince probably has a set at the Hogwarts Library, in the restricted section. Lilly probably shared them with James, Lupin, Peter, and Sirius; who probably looked at them -- though I don't know if Sirius took them seriously . (Sorry, just had to put that in!)

edit to include set at Hogwarts

I just can see the next title of Gilderoy's next book (after leaving St. Mungo): To Arda and beyond... ;)

Yes, but aren't there different principles involved in the two different book series? I don't see how Rowling could use The Lord of the Rings in her plot, as for example, she gives a totally different presentation of elves in her books. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is not even certain that Tolkien's Middle Earth is a distant past in human history, I had the impression as I read the books that the land where these things were happening was unspecified. That is what differentiates the two series a lot, in my opinion. The Harry Potter universe exists simultaneously with the world we perceive as real. Many things from it can be used as plot devices should Rowling choose to do so (and she did). But with Middle Earth, a totally different world that makes magical appear normal and fantasy creatures accepted by humans as real, it just doesn't seem plausible to me.

Hey - what about GINNY! If any of the Weasleys read the Muggle Tolkien books - it would have been her, not Ron. She seemed to be more perceptive about the Magical World, and not so scared to learn very tricky hexes. Could she have been inspired by her secret readings of the Muggle Tolkien books? But I get the sense that possibly if Fred or George found then, they would have changed a few chapters as a joke - so possibly she thinks Gandalf is actually a Witch.

Hermione I can imagine she tried to make it through one of them, but was more distracted by all the massive volumes of Magic Lore available at Hogwart's. So I think she would considered Tolkien a time waster- after all since she is the only one who read Hogwart's, A History - think logically! Even her avid reading would have distracted her from other fine Fantasy Literature.

Ron - yeah, he would think, "how could freaky little creatures who don't even have the sense to wear shoes go on an adventure, and battle an evil lord?" He might have thought it was a good Muggle joke people played on each other, thinking the Tolkien books were not real.

Harry - I think he would have discovered them. Being locked in his room so much, at least on one occasion he must have bought a beat up copy of the Hobbit, and hid it as well in his room, or just read it at the Library because Fantasy books were banned as well in the Dursley sensible abode.

One might wonder what Luna and her father would make of "Lord of the Rings". At a guess: they'd be unimpressed, thinking it a pretty mundane chronicle of ordinary everyday life -- unintuitive, pedestrian, and hardly worth bothering with. Their interest would be likely be piqued, though, by the Chief Ringwraith's loathsome flying steed (suspected relict pterodactyl); and by the mumakil (giant elephants).


With respect -- I find it hard to imagine Vernon ever in his life voluntarily opening a book; and doubt whether the Privet Drive household itself (realise that you refer in part, to Vernon's parents) owned a single book of any kind whatsoever. I don't think I'm being unfair to the Dursleys in this -- feel that "unfair to the Dursleys" is more or less an impossibility. Chiming in with some thoughts on the "Dursleys' Little Secret" thread on "Character Analysis": the "4 Privet Drive-ers" are not, I feel, meant as well-rounded plausible characters, but as grotesques -- for me, enjoyable ones -- of crassness and soul-less abhorrence of the slightest divergence from the norm.

It's almost a given that the Tonks family had a set of LotR, illustrated by Alan Lee. A family that challenged the abusive characteristics of bias, The Tonks' attitude toward cultural enrichment -- with meaning, and purpose -- would have introduced Ms N. Tonks at an early age to the enchanting relationships, dedication to purpose, and remarkable vistas that Mr. Lee's drawings brought to the literal imagery of the "Peoples" of Middle Earth.

I'm not saying that "Tonks" actually read the books. Come on! How many teenagers/early 20's would muddle through over 1,000 pages of story: which at one point encompasses 7 different story lines, ancient realms, people that never die, a flashlight that needs no battery (Galadrial's phial), Elven Rope(?!), a Ranger from the North (who is not at all who he appears), an unparalleled friendship between a dwarf and an elf (the books, not the movies), swords named Glamdring and Sting, epic poems, . . . and did I mention Ents?

Now you want to talk about some exciting literature: Keep in mind that the Ministry of Magic was on the verge of collaps, and that Dumbledore had just died (Summer 1997) -- Tonks would probably have had no time for reading "fiction" (fantasy, or otherwise). However, Harry Potter and The Philosopher's Stone was first published on June 26, 1997. Now don't get me wrong, but could it be that the initial amazing success of the book was that Tonks and members of the Order of the Phoenix (using muggle money, of course) grabbed up loads of Philosopher's Stone in order to get some real "back story" on Voldemort and "friends" (Voldemort had no friends, Gollum didn't either.)???

I'm sure few rare wizards would have read it (since you are a wizard at 11 and barely focus on anything but magic after that). 11 is a bit too young, but not impossible, to read LotR. Maybe a mother at home, like Molly, would have read it?

But who's to say LotR even exists in Harry Potter's parallel universe? To assume that LotR is in his world is assuming everything in our world is the same as theirs, which would mean the Harry Potter books would exist in Harry's world also, which is fundamentally weird.

My eleven year old grand daughter will gladly explain to you that the fictional worlds are very much connected and that the first, and only, Hobbit ever to be admitted to Hogwarts as a student is Fern-Larkin, a grand niece of Frodo on his mother's side.

Her journey between the two worlds was difficult, involving two major steps: First, a lost door from Hobbiton to the Secret Garden and then a lengthy ride on a Muggle bus to London. (Apparently the Secret Garden is a bit like the Wood between the Worlds--ivy covered doors that lead to all imaginative worlds.)

Fern cannot take astronomy because like all Hobbits she has a great fear of heights and she cannot bring herself to stand on the astronomy tower. However, she is Hogwarts' finest student in Herbology and Care of Magical Creatures because, as everyone knows, Hobbits have a great love for all living things.

She once invited her uncle Frodo to come to Hogwarts to teach a few lessons in Orc and Troll fighting. Draco, naturally, thought it was stupid, but Harry and Hermione thought it was wise to learn all kinds of defensive skills. Ron was horrified by the tales of the great spiders of Middle Earth.

A bit later, Eragon helped Hagrid teach a few lessons in the care and feeding of miniature dragons, about the size of a Cocker Spaniel.

She hasn't told me yet, but I suspect she will claim that Fred and George learned to make their fireworks from Gandalf.

Bravo!! I think we need to get our two "11 yr olds" together, if not in London, how about Memphis? You mentioned in a previous thread the wonderful skills of childhood non-containment. My 11yr thinks a boggart may be something like a balrog. She likes Pippin; and wants to play Quidditch! I think it's fantastic. Thanks, WordsAreMagic!

I would guess that Hermione has read them...her parents probably had copies at home and had read them to her as a child. She probably read through them lickety-split herself before she even knew she was a witch (at 8 or 9) and imagined that they were probably pretty real because she knew that strange things happened to her from time to time that just didn't make sense. Now, I would guess she sees them very much like all witches or wizards do, as a story written by a muggle who had a rather intuitive understanding that magic was real, but wasn't able to fully understand it - in other words a fairly enlightened muggle. They would still see them as fantasy though...muggle fantasy about the far off history of the present magical world, gleaned perhaps from oral tales like the ones passed down by Beedle the Bard. Given that, her favorite characters are Pippen and Merry because they remind her of Ron. She actually read them to her own kids at about the same age her parents read them to her.

Harry had probably heard of them as a kid but never bothered to read them because the Dursleys wouldn't have had copies - there IS magic in there and that's a rather cursed word in the Dursley household. Harry probably heard about them at least in his muggle school, but they weren't usually assigned reading until the higher grades and he wasn't all that motivated to read them because no one he knew ever talked about them. Harry probably read them as an adult at Ron's suggestion and really liked them. He probably wondered if Tolkien may have known some witches or wizards without realizing it or maybe even had a wizard relative. Harry identifies with Frodo but finds the ending terribly sad because he never has any children.

Ron was probably about as clueless about the LotR as he was about Cinderella and Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. But he actually probably first heard them read aloud as an adult when Hermione was reading them to the kids. But then he got involved with the story and started reading ahead because they echo so many of the struggles and values of their own fight against Voldamort. Ron likes the battles in LotR and his favorite character is Galadriel because she reminds him of a cross between Hermione and a Veela. But he actually likes The Hobbit better than LotR because its funnier and he identifies with Bilbo.

A cross between Hermione and a Veela: That's funny -- scary -- but funny! What a great analysis, Chloe! Neither Frodo nor Bilbo had kids. Sam does; and we assume that Aragorn and Arwen do.

What about Ginny and Harry? Does Ginny get the kids to read it? Lily, maybe. I think Albus Severus difinitely. Great post!

Ginny and Harry probably ended up reading them to their kids too after Ron and Hermione's kids kept talking about them. The kids all ended up playing the different LotR parts - acting out some of the scenes in the backyard when their parents got together for a visit...at least until the oldest ones got into school. Then the real magic was much more exciting.

(thanks)

I'm not certain what you did with the quotes here. But you have my name in the quotes and absolutely none of what you quoted is from any post of mine. I think 'Ex Libres Cogito' made the comment about the books in the Dursley household. However, strangely enough, before he met Petunia I can see Vernon owning the books without ever having read them. They are treasures of post war English literature. A lot of people purchase books like they buy paintings or expensive knickacks or table top magazines--for show, not for personal enjoyment.

That could have been one of the things the wizards changed. And I can't imagine Jo using the LOTR as anything serious==but antedotal.

Maime the Hunter: I'm replying here to the part addressed to me, of your post no. 20. Sorry about the seeming inappropriateness: bottom line is, I'm relatively new to computers, and an extreme technophobe and a very un-apt pupil with them. Have problems with the "quoting" mechanism on TLC, plus I was posting in a hurry on Jan. 5th -- I tend to find that if I interfere, in the slightest way, with anywhere where it says "Quote, in square brackets", the result is a nightmarish shambles. I was indeed responding to Ex Libres Cogito's posting. (Am doing this post straight after yours, "unadorned" -- not taking the risk of messing with attempted quoting, for the reasons described above!)

Now that you mention it, I can see Vernon owning "LOTR" purely as a coffee-table embellishment. One shouldn't be a snob and prejudice-merchant -- and there are very many lovely, and admirable, people who are the polar opposite of bookworms; but (succumbing to my nasty side): for my money, I prefer folk who honestly have no use for books and have no truck with them, to those who get them "for show", and never open them!

Aahh, I love the image of Vernon owning a collector's set of LOTR that he has never read. I think the books would certainly have been smuggled to Hogwarts. The Hobbit, after all, is a children's book. I imagine many of the children from muggle families would have read some of the series and known it to be fantasy. But somewhere deep within they would have recognized the lost history and suspected that it all was true.

Ron would certainly have recognized the relationship between Shelob and Aragog. Ginny would have wondered if Tom Bombadil (At least I think that's the very large man) was also a half giant. Hermione would have done extensive research to see if sylvan elves were real and if they looked as Tolkein described them. Then she would have researched how they relate, if at all, to house-elves. All would have wondered about the similarities between Gandalf and Dumbledore. Was the whomping willow related to the ents or the willow that tried to eat one of the hobbits? Would the ghosts of Hogwarts want to know how the oathbreakers managed to move on? The resurrection stone and the Palantir? Hermione could happily spend years researching.

I think Harry would have associated with both Frodo and Aragorn. All three are thrust into an adventure that began with their relatives. Both Harry and Aragorn are wary of the "chosen" title and have doubts before they accept their roles/destiny. Harry, like Frodo, was grateful to return to an ordinary life. Harry would have pitied Aragorn who had to remain as king.

Ginny would certainly have identified with Eowyn. Both chafed at being left behind and desired to fight. Hermione, I think would have felt something for Arwen, wise and steadfast. Arwen's sending Aragorn the banner (and elendil? or I am confusing the movie) is something Hermione would have done.

I think both Ron would have felt close to Merry and Pippin, especially once they embarked on their own adventure. Ron also had a bit of Boromir in him - a little of the desire for his own glory. The idea that he could have managed better than Harry.

Neville is most like Sam Gamgee or Bilbo. A loyal, reliable friend who steps up when needed. The hobbits returned to the shire and Neville returned to Hogwarts. Neville does seem the most hobbit-like and, given his name, that can't be coincidence.

As in "Longbottom Leaf", superlative brand of pipe-weed -- right on! Started to give vent to thoughts about the present-day issue re tobacco, but decided that was best left alone.

I think Harry doesn't have the patience or time for long books, Ron would get bored of the lack of Quidditch, and Hermione would go through it being thoroughly annoying with comments like 'Huh! As if a wizard could ever do that!' and 'This Gollum character is clearly an offensive stereotypical representation of elves and goblins!'

WIZARD! You are calling Gandalf and Saruman mere WIZARDS?!
They are Istari, Demigods of Middle Earth, Servants of the Valar.

And if you want a story how about my nephew's idea of fun by writing a quick story about how Frodo would beat Harry Potter in a fight anyday.

Yeah, but what have they done lately?

Thought so.

The Valar?
The Valar destroyed Morgoth, the single most powerful evil entity, to which Sauron was nought but a Servant.
Is that good enough for you?

Ah, yes. It is difficult to engage fiction in fiction. The thread has led to interesting character analysis; however, as an experiment in literature review, it is a well greased ride through the tunnels of Moria -- I mean Gringott's .

How does anyone else feel about this way of looking at Tolkien through HP eyes?

There is a brand new shiny thread discussing whether or not the students at Hogwarts read Lord of the Rings, and/or other types of Muggle literature here. Please enjoy the discussions! This thread will now be closed.

Happy posting

Lirene
LL Moderator