HP OotP: Voldemort is gathering followers, or at least that is what members of the Order of the Phoenix are saying. The Prophet seems to ignore Voldemort altogether. Yet the OotP cannot help inside Hogwarts where Umbridge has taken over. You're on your own kids.

Vulnerable students need protection - and Harry's just the man to teach them how to protect themselves. Look at his record! So we've got a group of followers, not many, who want to join up. They call themselves Dumbledore's Army. Dumbledore doesn't even know that they're up to it! So where do you sign?

But it's not like that, Harry tells us. You don't know what it's like, when it's real. OK, then tell us.

There are rules: Rules of engagement? Like what you're allowed to do, and what you're not? Also, there needs to be a format of organization: Structure, communication, arsonal, training, intelligence, etc. Who's in charge? What happens if someone breaks a rule? Is the DA susceptible to spies (Peter Petegrew, others?)? Punishment?

Academic Analysis, if you please.

Actually, it is pretty clear there was none of this structure, except that Harry was the leader, and Hermione's jinxed sign-up list was her way against spies, and they were notified of the next meeting using the coins. Other than that people were invited based on who they knew and were friends with, they were really straight DA lessons learning how to do anti-dark arts magic.

In light of recent developments (Radio City), I am guessing that "don't ask, don't tell," is not the official policy of Dumbledore's Army.

In the sense of an actual army, I hadn't thought about what you're suggesting. A little brain-stretching is good for us though, correct?

Dumbledore would be Commander in Chief, although unknowingly, and Harry, his General. Ron and Hermione, lieutenants.
As for intelligence, at this point, most of their intelligence would be devoted to keeping an eye on the High Inquisitor and her Inquisitorial Squad's movements, locations, etc, with hopes of eventually being able to focus on the whereabouts and movements of Voldemort and the DE's.
Spies. Marietta. I'm not sure she started out that way, but per her own doubts and insecurities, Umbridge was able to get to her and get the information she wanted.
I'm not sure there were any rules of engagement, at least none spoken. Although, as we see, the DA learns defensive strategies, the shield charms, expelliarmus. Their offensive spells are effective and sometimes painful and frequently of the nuisance variety (bat bogeys, anyone?), but not deadly. (I believe that covers a part of their arsenal as well.)

Is that along the lines of your thinking, ELC?

Fantastic! Right on the mark, Misty. After Battle at the Ministry, Department of Mysteries, there are not many out and out confrontations of the DA (those that we know of) from the end of HP OotP, through HBP, until the battle on top of the Astronomy Tower. From then until the final battle in DH the DA is actively engaged (wands at the ready). I also want to cover issues regarding casualties, "civilians", DA prisoners (MIAs), captured DE prisoners and "use" of captured goods -- these are/have been real ethical issues for many (not all) armed forces throughout history.

Thank you, Misty; and all others for responding!

Well, we know there were civilian casualites. The first thing that comes to mind is the bridge accident mentioned in the beginning of HBP. Also the caretaker in the beginning of GOF, although he was before the formation of the DA. (his name won't come to me right now, Frank, maybe?) Charity Burbage, though not a civilian, was certainly a casualty. She was not a member of the DA, officially, but I think we can consider anyone on the side of Dumbledore and Harry as un-official recruits.

Now I am quite sure there is a LOT we could say about Snape's role, although I doubt I could come up with anything that has not been said before. He was a casualty of the war, as well as a spy, it could be argued, for both sides.

I wonder, MistyH, whether Prof. Snape truly had no veritaserum left when Inquisitor D. Umberage questioned Harry. Curious indeed it seems that Professor Snape left her and the Inquisitorial Squad without either anticipated anti-DA material, nor with explanation. I can't say that I blame him, as she clearly made his life difficult. Yet, to me, he seemed to give Harry and other members of the DA "hope."

Snape is an enigma, less maybe than is Professor Lupin. His loyalties, ever in question, may be less evident because he has a great poker face, speaks "the right" language for whoever may be listening, and is incredibly brilliant. If I may be so bold, I consider that Snape's campaign is beyond that of either the DA, the Inquisitorial Squad, the Order, DE's, or even Voldemort. His challenge, I believe - aided pre-series by Lily Evans Potter - was with, and against, himself.

The DA, and Harry included, had purpose to him (not necessarily for him). I do not see him as a spy for or against the DA. Rather, his "challenge" was not to get involved. It was not for him to destroy this group; nor was it to impede it. Even to help would risk great harm to "good" people (including his rival, Sirius Black). Regardless of Snape's long held feelings, I don't think Snape (realizing now that Petegrew - not Sirius - had been the "trigger" to Voldemort's gun) would have knowingly sent Sirius to his death.


Edit: No spell check

ELC, regarding Snape's "poker face," I think you are spot on. I hadn't considered it in those terms before, but he certainly did. I am convinced that only Dumbledore and Voldemort were convinced (in opposite directions) of Snape's loyalties. And of course, Dumbledore was correct, Voldemort was not. But perhaps you are right, Snape really may not be a spy, or even, a double agent, since his loyalties truly were with Dumbledore. I certainly agree that Snape's real challenge and battle was within himself. Enigma is the best word to describe him.

I am pleased that you brought that up about the veritaserum as well, because I wondered that myself and I really have to believe that he was lying to Umbridge. (yay!)

Misty, thank you for your validation. You are right to consider casualties related to the War - and to the DA scope of interventions. Members of the DA in OotP, and afterwards, may have been in positions to help - to provide relief, to alert the Order, and maybe to provide protection at times. Over a period of 2 1/2 years, communication did develop among DA soldiers, and with the Order. The "broadcasts" in HP DH were definitely an outgrowth of the original DA. After OotP, Harry seemed to be less, and less in direct command of the DA. I wonder who during HBP and DH took command, and second command of DA. Was it probably Giny, Neville, Luna? Or maybe a combination of them, Fred, George, Lee, Seamus, and others? Did teachers join as well? (I wouldn't doubt it.) Thanks again, Misty.

"Well, we know there were civilian casualites. The first thing that comes to mind is the bridge accident mentioned in the beginning of HBP. Also the caretaker in the beginning of GOF, although he was before the formation of the DA. (his name won't come to me right now, Frank, maybe?) Charity Burbage, though not a civilian, was certainly a casualty. She was not a member of the DA, officially, but I think we can consider anyone on the side of Dumbledore and Harry as un-official recruits."

MistyH, I would certainly consider Charity Burbage to be a civilian casualty of the second war. She may have been a supporter of her Headmaster and of his pro-muggle ideas, but she was not a "soldier" in this war. She had not signed up - as it were - to literally fight against the Dark Lord. She supported the cause of equality among all (I like to think she was a Hufflepuff - shy smile) in a very brave way. By teaching young witches and wizards about their fellow non-magical humans; and by writing pro-Muggle op ed pieces in the Daily Prophet. How courageous and noble of her! But i still consider her a civilian casualty. Just like all those Muggles who died in that bridge accident and the so-called hurricane in the West Country that was referred to in The Other Minister chapter of HBP. And, as you say, Frank Bryce was also a civilian casualty in GoF. And Florean Fortescue.

For me, the "soldier" casualties were - from the Order of the Phoenix - Alaster Moody, Remus Lupin, Nymphadora Tonks, Emmeline Vance, Sirius Black, Severus Snape, Albus Dumbledore (if the ring curse would have killed him - and I think we agree it would have -, then the man who put the curse on that ring (LV) is responsible for his death); and - from Dumbledore's Army - Colin Creevey, Fred Weasley. These are people that specifically and with knowledge of what they were getting into signed up to physically fight against Lord Voldemort under the orders of Albus Dumbledore or Harry Potter. (And Bill Weasley was badly mangled - in the hospital scene in HBP Harry thinks he looks almost as bad as Mad-Eye, except with both eyes and legs - although not killed.)

I would also kind of consider Dobby a "soldier" casualty. Since the summer before Harry's second year at school, the elf put himself in the service of protecting and keeping alive The Boy Who Lived.

Amelia Bones could be considered a civilian casualty since I see no canon that she was a member of the Order of the Phoenix nor an Auror. She was simply a very fair and objective judge who ruled with moral courage but without prejudice or favoritism - and who paid the price for that. (By the way, she is the character I most identify with (strive to be like?) in the HP series, but that's neither here nor there.) It was her brother who was a member of the first Order, I think. I remember Mad-Eye telling us that in OoP.

And, last but definitely not least, let us never forget the very first and most innocent civilian casualty of the second war, which in effect began with Lord Voldemort's "rebirth" at the end of GoF. A 17-year-old civilian who was murdered in cold blood and for no reason, just because he happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time - a scenerio as old as war itself, and as modern as yesterday's headline. Cedric Diggory.



Laura

"remember cedric diggory"

Very nicely done Laura. I'm glad you remembered Cedric. (and a bit ashamed that I left him out.)

ELC, I can definitely see Ginny stepping up as the leader of the DA when Harry wasn't there. She has the personality and the drive to do it, whereas, I think Neville was developing those qualities but they weren't there yet. So I see him and Luna as, perhaps, sergeants in the Hogwart's front, with Fred and George as Lieutenants in the Diagon Alley front.

Unless I misunderstood the question, it seems to me that the only rule of Dumbledore's Army is No Slytherins Allowed.

That does a great disservice to the school and the DA. Although you'd never know it from McGonagall's attitude towards Slughorn in DH, not all Slytherins are evil. Most of them are probably just scared kids like everyone else. To exclude all of them because of the actions of a few is wrong. I guess Harry and Co. didn't pay much attention to the Sorting Hat's call for unity.

I can't think of a single Slytherin that would want to be in the DA, or who could be trusted to keep the secret. They may not all be evil, but I did notice that all of the members of the Inquisitorial Squad that were named were Slytherins. And not a single Slytherin joined the other DA members in the RoR during the Carrow's reign. And not a single Slytherin stayed to fight in the Battle of Hogwarts. Let's face it, the Slytherins weren't interested in opposing Voldemort; most were too busy supporting him, in spirit if not in deed.

Slytherins in the DA? Why not? I would have rather expected a few to initiate friendly contact, perhaps in secret, by the end of Harry's 5th year. More, and even less discretely, through the following summer and during Slughorn's first year back. In DH? Come on. This is all out war. Very few students were safe, even pure bloods. So unless the DA was disbanded before the end of the HP Series, I genuinely assume that students of Slytherin House would not only have joined the DA, but some would have undoubtedly made remarkable achievements to benefit the Army.

After all, for all we know, Albus Severus Potter may have taken a bench at the Slytherin table - 19 years later.

The only thing wrong with your argument is that none of them did. I also would have expected, or rather hoped, that someone from Slytherin would have turned to the good side and fought, but they didn't. In the RoR there was no Slytherin banner, making it plain that there were one of them there.

We do know that it is a kinder and gentler house by Albus Severus' time, so maybe ...

I was also hoping that by the end of DH we would see someone in the Slytherin house see the light and help in the cause against Voldemort. I wonder if perhaps the ones in Slytherin had just had those pure-blood beliefs and 'look out for #1 mentality' so ingrained in them for so long that they simply couldn't see the truth. Although, you would think by that time it was fairly obvious. I thought it was very sad when the students were leaving the great hall that none stayed at the Slytherin table.

really the only structure to it was that harry was in charge because of the "experiance" he has with fighting using his instincts. but the did have a somewhat organized communication in the book anyway with the galleons that hermione made that would have the date flash on them or something like that so that no one would get suspicous when then students from other houses would come up t harry and them during the day to figure out the next meeting. other than that i dont believe there really was much structure.

I actually totally agree with you, wizardcellopro.

Going back to OoP when DA first formed. Harry, Ron and Hermoine were very unhappy at how Umbridge was teaching (not teaching) DADA. Because Voldemort had "risen" and the second war had begun, they felt it was particularly important to learn how to defend oneself against the Dark Arts. Because of his unfortunate previous experiences in each of the previous four books and his natural gift for those kinds of spells - including resisting the Imperius Curse -, Harry Potter already knew a lot of DADA that nobody else did. So, Hermoine suggested he give lessons to anyone else who wanted to learn. I believe that is how she worded it: anyone else who wanted to learn. (And there were no Slytherin students who fit into that category? Doesn't sound logical to me, but Jo made it so.) So, all those who wanted to take lessons with Harry met at the Hog's Head in Hogsmeade.

The "rules" to become part of Harry's class - which automatically meant you were part of Dumbledore's Army - were almost non-existent. You had to sign the form saying you would not tell anybody that the group exists and you had to show up for class when you got the message from Hermoine's galleons. Period.

Obviously, there was no obligation to actually fight if necessary. We know that there were 28 members of DA because Harry asks Dobby where 28 people could go in private. Yet, when hermoine's galleons summon the whole DA during the Battle at Hogwarts at the end of HBP, the only members of the DA who feel obliged to show up and fight are Hermoine, Ron, Luna, Ginny and Neville. Where is Terry Boot and Cho Chang and Ernie Macmillan and Michael Corner and all the rest of them? What did they think signing up for DA meant? Obviously, just taking classes with Harry so that they could learn how to produce a Patronus.

Of course they all showed up at Hogwarts for the (final) battle in DH, but so did a lot of people who weren't associated wth the DA. The way I read it, all the Ravenclaw, Gryffindor and Hufflepuff students 17 years of age or older fought; as did their parents and other relatives; as did the adult citizens of Hogsmeade; and a whole bunch of other wizards and wiches who were against what LV stood for.

So, to me, the only real members of Dumbledore's Army were Harry, Hermoine, Ron, Ginny, Luna and Neville. In other words, the kids who went to the MoM in OoP.

Even Harry thinks that DA has effectively been disbanded after fifth year. On the train to school at the beginning of his six year, Luna asks if DA will still be meeting. And Harry says something like he doesn't see any point to it since Umbridge won't be teaching DADA any more.


Laura

Thanks, Laura. Fine post, and it does tie up many "loose threads." I had forgotten about the conversation between Harry and Luna on the train. Thanks.

Actually, this is unfair to the other members. Only Neville and Luna turned up via the coins because the DA had meant most to them, and presumably they were carrying the coins just in case something happened. But I don't think you can criticize others for assuming, after a year with no meetings, that DA was over and so they had stopped carrying the coins. This is perfectly reasonable really since the DA was at least in part a rebellion against Umbridge, and she had gone. It is interesting to note that the DA reforms, and the coins are used again in DH when there is again something worth rebelling against (though they still see it as a school-based thing, and a reaction against Snape and the Carrows, and don't all see the wider picture).

I know it doesn't sound logical there were no Slytherins who wanted to learn. Maybe there were, but they are Slytherins so either they didn't want to learn from Harry Potter, felt they couldn't go against their house and felt this was going against their house, or were persuaded by bullies in their house not to go.
Where are Terry Boot, Cho Chang, Ernie Macmillan, and Michael Corner? Not carrying their coin around. We see early on in the book that Luna and Neville miss the classes. For them, it was a way to have friends and a social hour. They didn't get to hang around many classmates otherwise.
At this point, they probably realize it's crucial to carry the coin around and be an active member in the DA or someone's told them to carry it around.
I somewhat agree. These are the main members and up until DH the real members, but in DH, anyone who hid out in the Room of Requirement or came back to fight (students, not members of the Order) are considered DA members, by me.

Actually, the idea of it being anyone who wanted to learn isn't strictly true. In practice she means anyone who wants to learn who we know well enough to believe we can trust them, and any friends they might have. The principle of anyone who wants to learn extends to the likes of Zacharias Smith, and Marietta "Sneak" Edgecombe who wouldn't be on Hermione's list of people she would choose to invite, but not to the Slytherins who Hermione would expect to go straight to Umbridge. So it is likely that there were no Slytherins in the DA because none were ever invited to come.
I also would include anyone who continued in the DA in DH (when things actually got more risky than during OotP), and anyone who fought in the Battle of Hogwarts (where there was a real chance of getting killed) which is actually almost all of Harry's original group.

Did anyone invite a Slytherin to join? I don't recall the text at the moment, but I don't think so.

I'm inclined to agree with roonwit on this

Well, I think that having Death Eaters enter the castle at the end of HBP is "something worth rebelling against". Obviously so did Ron, Hermoine, Ginny, Luna and Neville. Never before had DEs entered Hogwarts. Having them there was a huge threat to all students and staff alike. It was not a minor thing. The only thing more serious would be Voldemort himself showing up.

As I see it, if those who joined Dumbledore's Army did so with the knowledge that they would answer the Galleons' call - trusting Hermoine to call when absolutely necessary - and to use their new skills (taught by Harry) to fight against the DarK Lord and anyone on his side, they all should have turned up at the end of OoP. If, on the other hand, joining DA meant only taking DADA classes from Harry, I wouldn't expect them - any of them - to have the coins on them in either HBP or DH. If they saw DA in the second way I described, the organization effectively disbanded when Umbridge left.

As I view it, hermoine, Ron, Luna, Ginny and Neville thought they were signing up for one thing (ie - a permanent and always on-call force dedicated to fighting the bad guys) and the other members thought/acted as though they were just registering for another class at Hogwarts: an unofficial, somewhat illegal class or school club.

And, as I said, they appeared at Hogwarts to fight in DH, but so did a whole bunch of non-DA witches and wizards; some of them Hogwarts students and many just ordinary WW adults. Oliver Wood was not a member of the DA, but he came to help fight. Same with Percy. And all the Gryffindor, Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff current students who stayed when McGonagall gave whoever wanted to permission to leave. And all the teachers. And, as it is written in chapter 36 of DH, "the families and friends of every Hogwats student who had remained to fight, along with the shopkeepers and homeowners of Hogsmeade." As well as the centaurs and the house elves. Not to mention the Order of the Phoenix people. By that battle, being a member of the DA was irrelevant.

For me, it as an entity really was irrelevant when we read the last page of OoP. From then on - in HBP and DH -, it really was just the six of them (you know ... Ron, Hermoine, Ginny, Luna, Harry, Neville) who had fought at the MoM in OoP who comprised the teenage army who was always there to fight for Dumbledore's and Harry's cause. And they would have put their lives on the line for the "good side" even if such as thing as Dumbledore's Army had never existed.


HBP, Chapter Seven, p. 132 (Raincoast):
In the Hogwarts Express on the way to school -
" 'Are we still doing DA meetings this year, Harry?' asked Luna. ...
'No point now we've got rid of Umbridge, is there?' said Harry, sitting down."

Oh well, guess when I saw how few turned up to fight DEs in their own school in HBP, i got kind of disillusioned with this 28-member teenage resistance force. And, as you can see, DH didn't change my mind. I just don't find them or the idea of them as romantic (using the word in that adventurous, swashbuckling way) as some fans or as Jo probably does. (Shrug)

For me, as it turned out, the major significance of whole Dumbledore's Army thing (ie - going behind Umbridge's back to teach other students what the DADA teacher didn't want them to know) was a way for Harry to get back at Umbridge; a small victory for all the horrible, horrible things she said to and about him, and what she did to him. (Go Harry!!)








LW

It isn't as simple as that though. The majority of the DA would have joined so that they were skilled enough to defend themselves but they weren't expecting to need to use it in the short term, because Hogwarts always seemed a place of safety. And up until the end of HBP the galleons were only ever used to give the date of the next meeting, so they weren't expecting an emergency call. I do think a lot more of the DA would have turned up had they had some sort of warning to expect something like this, but as it turned out most of the school didn't know anything was happening until the death eaters were in retreat.

I agree, Roonwit. They didn't trust any of the Slytherins, yet it was one of their own who betrayed them. There should have been a lesson in there somewhere. And Hermione had no right to blackmail them by jinxing the paper in the first place, but that's another thread.

Doesn't Slughorn lead a contingent of Slytherins in the final battle? If so, then it just goes to show that they aren't all horrible. JKR should have pushed that point, and having them in the DA would have been a way to do that. There's nothing wrong with cunning and ambition, after all. It's how you apply it that's important.

No, there is no mention of a contingent of Slytherins. The book only mentions Slughorn himself.

It doesn't mention them in the book, but JKR said on PotterCast:

Thank you. I did not know that. I wish she had put it in the book. This makes the Slytherins look a lot better, in my opinion. Why didn't she say it in the book?

Well said, Snorkak and HarryDavid! It's certainly not obvious from the text, nor infered. And what a difference it makes! It seems that Neville, Giny and Luna had reorganized the DA, under Neville's leadership? during the term after Dumbledore's death. Slytherins should have been included, along with anyone else at Hogwarts. It was not a part of the Order; but worked tangentially with it. Slughorn and other teachers knew what to do; and how to rally their Houses. Stealing the Gryffindor Sword may have been one of a great many campaigns of the DA during DH. My guess is that, 19 years later, the DA still exists.

Ooooh ELC, I like that idea, that the DA still exists 19 years later. Yes. I believe it does.

I need a little help in the backstory here; but how old were James, Lily, Lupin, Sirius, the Longbottoms, etc. when the Order of the Phoenix was first formed? And what influence did Sirius have on Harry, Hermione, et al to begin Fudge's worst nightmare: Dumbledore's army to take over the ministry? Hermione's intent must have been more than to beat Umbrage at her own game - and pass O.W.L.s! Learning how to defend themselves, particularly since Voldemort was actually "back" (ask Seamus) seemed more urgent; even if Harry was very hesitant to teach.

Yet in the Room of Requirement (OotP), we find more than just individuals learning defensive spells, and counter curses. The combined risk was enough to congeal this new secret society within Hogwarts (without even the knowledge of the Headmaster for whom it was named?) to act more or less as one body. I believe rules became established; and that every student at Hogwarts was eventually given the opportunity to join - including Slytherins. More so, I believe that the DA offered an interface with members of the Order, including teachers, as well as other races (House Elves), their families, and others. Perhaps, if you are willing to go a bit further out on a limb with me, the DA was even more effective than the Order ever was. What do you say?

We are never told. Many thinks they were recruited directly after school, others in the seventh year. But Jo has never said. We have to wait for the Scottish Book.

The Longbottoms ought to be a few years older than the other, as they were well-known aurors when they were attacked. But you never know, when it comes to Jo and Maths.

U cant makeout, no slytherins

I'd just like to point out that with a Wizarding population of Britain of about 3000 (there exist some essays on this topic) an army of 28 (as stated in OotP, excluding Marietta and including Seamus) represents 1 % of the population, whereas real-life-United Kingdom has an Army (and Navy) of only about 0.4 % of its population. They know each other well before DA was started and were recruited on a personal recommandation basis. But if you happen to have lived in a community of only 3000, you'll know that everyone is bound to know everyone else there.
They seem to use the same rules as the Order otP, that is, no Unforgiveables (although Harry uses them at Gringotts and Hogwarts in DH).