The Title is from the Tina Turner classic, What's Love Got to Do With It written by Terry Britten & Graham Lyle.

This thread is for fun as well as discussions. Treat it like Stone Soup, whatever you bring to the table is welcomed.

1) Choose any pairing, Ron and Hermione, James and Lily (Yes they were actually a couple--they dated, married, had a baby and everything!!) Snape and Lily, Lily and the Giant Squid, Dumbledore and Gellert, Aberforth and the Goat, Fluer and Bill to discuss time honored idealism about romantic love in reality, contemporary views of romantic love, and how literature has or has not influenced how we think of love, romance and commitment.

2.) Compare Jo's approach to romance to other authors, who have used romance staples as a plot devices in fantasy, mystery, historical or other genres, including certain romances. For example: Didn't Tolkien put the relationship between Aragon and Arwen in his Appendix? Romeo and Juliet is a romance with message. The kind of message has changed as I grew from a love struck daughter to a cautious (Does he at least have a job?) mother and those types types of observations are welcomed also.


3.) Rants and general confusion.--for example why is it okay for Hermione to be physical in her anger towards Ron? What would we have thought if Ron was physical towards Hermione in the same way? Exactly what kind of snog did legally adult Krum give legally a minor Hermione? Or anything that tickles your fancy.

LOL! I absolutely love this thread. But you didn't add Harry and Ginny to your list of couples (is there a reason for that?) I have heard so much talk about the submissive gender roles played by the women in Harry Potter, particularly Molly and Ginny. ("The quintessential stay-at-home-mother looking after her man and brood of kids" & "Does Ginny wait around for Harry to come back to her or not, and if she does is it an 'out-of-character', anti-feminist postion"...that sort of thing). Basically, I think Ginny and her entire family realized from very early on that she was never going to get any body better than Harry Potter. The girl knows what she wants.

You know, I was wondering about the Krum thing too. How old was Hermione? 15? (She is older than Ron and Harry by 6 to 10 months, respectively). But what struck me most was how Ron sort of inherited his mother's conservatism ("Scarlet woman" is a Molly Weasleyism if I ever saw one!)

I am looking forward to reading the posts on this topic.

Who?

Any fictional HP relationship is fair game.

Ah yes. Harry and Ginny. I have to admit that upon my first read of the series, which was rather late in the game (it was after HBP was released), I didn't really gather that Harry would eventually see Ginny as anything other than his best mate's sister.

It was clear, of course, where Ginny's interests were with regard to the famous "Boy who Lived", but when I finally got to HBP (where it became obvious that Harry was beginning to find himself attracted to Ginny), I was rather (pleasantly) surprised.

Upon subsequent re-reads, it was still not entirely obvious to me that they would end up together, although the clues here and there were easier to spot.

Of course, I still wonder at those who believed for so long that Harry and Hermione were destined to be together as it was made abundantly clear by Rowling that brilliant Hermione and, um, not quite as brilliant Ron were nutters for each other. How could anyone have missed that?

Then again, I suppose the same could be said of me missing the whole Harry/Ginny dynamic at first.

Clearly, romantic love was not Rowling's major point of emphasis in the novels, at least not as far as I'm concerned. It was very light-hearted as far as romance went - she never delved any deeper than she had to - but again, that wasn't really where her story's focus was concentrated.

I do think that Ron and Hermione represent our contemporary idea of "opposites attracting", even though it could most definitely be argued that both these characters are quite similar to one another (especially in terms of low self-esteem at times).

The Harry/Ginny pairing is the most intriguing to me though, because, as Kabbymoh states, the girl clearly knew what she wanted and went after it!

The thing I can't quite figure out though was whether or not Ginny took Hermione's advice regarding Harry completely to heart, or whether it was just a ploy to get Harry in the end.

I'm inclined to think that she truly did throw herself into her friends, various boyfriends, etc., and made a valiant attempt to consider Harry as just a friend - and was able to do it because Harry did eventually respond to that genuineness - if it came off as a farce, I'm not sure he would have responded the way he did.

So, this brings me to the whole "want what you can't have" aspect of romance, which is one of the most vexing things about life, in general. Ginny, from the get, was crazy about Harry (that infamous valentine probably mortified him), but he only had thoughts of pretty Cho Chang (who, interestingly enough, he looked upon as someone who would be hard to "get").

He barely realized Ginny was there in a romantic sense. It didn't help that she was tongue-tied around him - how was he supposed to get an idea of her personality if she never showed him who she was? Of course, when he finally took notice, Ginny became yet another romantic interest that he perceived as hard to get. I'm not sure how much that may (or may not) have added to his attraction for her.

But, of course, he didn't know much about Cho either, and he was attracted to her, so there are no straight and easy answers in the game of love - which I do think Rowling touched upon (but you really have to look for it, imo).

What's great is that, Ginny has quite a lot of Fred and George in her, and Harry certainly likes them, so I'm sure he was pleasantly surprised at this aspect of her personality, once he got to see it for himself.

Long post, I know, but I've always been drawn to the romantic apsects of literature, and with the Potter books, although it is clearly a theme woven throughout the series, I feel it's up to us readers to fill in the romantic gaps that Rowling has (purposely?) left for us.

Actually girls who know what they want and go for it are a bad thing in Rowling's world - those are the Meropes and Romildas. A girl apparently has to at least pretend she doesn't know, and leave the initiative to the guy in order to get him.

Maybe it's the Disney "Little Mermaid" moral: The attractive, young "good girls" always get what they want, which was the polar opposite of what happened Han Christian Anderson's Little Mermaid. Cho and Ginny's romance breaks the mode in fictional tales of love, as Cho and Ginny are both admirable young women. Cho was just the right girl at the wrong time of Harry's life.
Narcissa gets what she wants--a rich handsome, pureblood wizard. If Bellatrix wanted Voldemort to value her, his rage when she is killed says more or less she got what she wanted. Eileen stayed with Tobias in an unhappy marriage--she must have wanted to stay and he must have been what she wanted. Petunia seems happy with Vernon and Dudley.

Although I believed it gospel when I was Jo's age and younger, I no longer believe in the concept of a soul mate--but it is a literary concept found in poetry and novels and short stories. We are, according to Jo, expected to see Harry and Ginny as soul mates.

Any comments on the concept of Soul mates?

I certainly see your point here - which is why I brought up the thought that, perhaps Ginny was only pretending a non-interest in Harry in order to make herself more attractive to him.

I don't really think she was, but being of the female species myself, I wouldn't put anything past us girls as far as love and romance go. And, she did, after all, only begin to distance herself from Harry as a romantic interest on Hermione's advice, it seems.



That's interesting Maime, as I'm not sure I ever thought of Harry and Ginny as soul mates. And I find it interesting that you state we're expected to see them as such in the books, when I for one had trouble seeing any connection between them to begin with - and certainly I didn't think of them in terms of being soul mates - so I'd really like to hear why you think Rowling portrayed them as such in the books.

Great thread Maime!

I have to ask this: what is it with Aberforth and goats??? I hate to be the totally weird one here asking this, as the topic is romance .. but if anyone can explain this to me, I would really appreciate it.

Uh- any detailed comments about bestiality would probably be inapproapriate, but where do Centaurs and Fauns come from?

Me? Came as a complete suprise to me when Jo made the comment: well, the Draco thing I understood, but not Harry and Ginny's "passionate" connection. Passion in Harry Potter. Where? http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2007/10/...n-new-york-city

Ah - thanks for the link - I didn't realize it came from Rowling's own statement. Well. I'm still as confused as you are then, because I certainly didn't read Harry and Ginny as being soul mates, but, then we get into that "fun" territory of, just because Jo says it is, is it so?

And, to my way of thinking, if Rowling thinks they were soul mates, then they were. But I certainly cannot find anything in the books to really support this idea, although like I stated earlier, this is the romance I fancy the most, so perhaps when I read the series again at some point, I'll change my thinking on the matter.

As to the goats...um...well. I always just gathered that Rowling was having a bit of a laugh there. I certainly don't want to think of anything inappropriate with regard to bestiality, and am more inclined to think Aberforth was experimenting with restricted breeding practices (goats and other magical creatures, NOT goats and humans)! Oy...

One romance that I thought was rather...blah...for lack of a much better word, was the one between Fleur and Bill. I dunno...she seemed kind of like a love-struck school girl, and he seemed like he only fancied her for her looks...and that he kind of put up with her slavish devotion to him, as it certainly was to his benefit to do so.

Then again, his face watching her walk down the aisle during their marriage was described as having never been marred by Greyback - so it's not like I didn't think he cared for her, but I think this is a case where she was more in love with him than he was with her.

Here's my take on Harry and Ginny. Ginny for the most part had a background role to the trio. She was Ron's sister, and for a very long time Harry had brotherly feelings for her. She in turn, is unusually quiet around him. Ginny was always infatuated with Harry, and I think it was accentuated in CoS when Harry saves her. But as was mentioned, Ginny pulling away from Harry and leading her own life was a cunning ploy; one as a female I can completely understand. But by ignoring Harry, she ignites his interest. Harry sees how popular she is, especially to the male population. Then he realizes that she is attractive as well. And here is where I see a similarity between Harry's feelings for Cho and those for Ginny. His first attraction to both of them are born out of their good looks and popularity.

The romance with Cho couldn't have happened at a worse time. So I think their relationship was doomed to begin with. Coupled with the fact that Harry quickly realized that emotionally, he wasn't compatible with Cho, ended it. To me at least, Cho wasn't a strong enough partner for Harry.

Ginny seems more Harry's equal; she has a strong charcter, she is brave and possibly more cunning as a witch (bat bogey hex), and loyal. She is also kind; she sticks up for Luna.

As far as Harry and Ginny being soul mates, I didn't see this at first either. However, the concept of soul mates is something quite complex, and at that age, I didn't think they had such a bond. They very well might become soul mates later in life.

Oh, and Oxymoronic, thanks for the goat explanation.....

The relationship between Harry and Ginny wasn't developed enough in the books to show they can be soul-mates. When Harry misses Ginny in DH all he can think of is the physical aspect of their relationship, not those 2-3 instances where there was an impression of deeper connection between them. But as far as we know, somewhere between May 2nd 1998 and James' conception they had enough time to develop a more meaningful relationship.

On the literary level it is obvious (at least in retrospect) that Rowling intended the Hermione/Ron and Harry/Ginny relationships all along, but many readers don't find one or both of these couples believable in the long term (as in what does s/he find in him/her? how could they be happy together 19 years later?) When Rowling says Ron is based on her friend and that she used to date Ron types, and then claims her second husband is what the adult Harry might be like you can see why some readers still think Hermione and Harry make a better couple than the canonical ones.

(Whether Cho was or wasn't strong enough for Harry can't be determined, we do not know what the normal Cho was like. A relationship with anyone just afew months after Cedric's death was way too soon.)

To Maime the Hunter - many women in the series got what they wanted eventually but since we did not see how those relationships started out we do not know what pattern if any they followed.

re: soul mates - I don't buy into the soul mate thing - I can buy the idea of a soul friend - someone who you may not even be romantically attached to but who you trust completely - someone who can share all your thoughts. feelings with -someone who has known you at your worst and still accepts you - someone who cares enough about you to tell you the unvarnished truth - in that sense - I have a best friend since kindergarten who I would think of as a soul friend.

I think that as one gets older and learns from experience - one is less sold- on the "romance" thing and one recognizes that relationships suceed because of terribly practical things - like shared values and interests - lol - shared beliefs about how to handle money and the kids - when I consider the boys who were the most desired in high school - I say good thing they didnt pick me back then - cause frankly - the things that make a guy so cool in high school have nothing to do with what will make them good partners in life.


I wonder about Ron and Hermione - sometimes people can support the worst in another - and it seems like that might be Ron and Hermione - Ron's easy going nature would support Hermione in being bossy bossy bossy - and Hermione's willingness to take charge - might encourage Ron's laziness.

I always thought Harry would go in the Luna direction - they seemed so compatible but perhaps that is a "soul friend" example!


Not to get controversial - but Sirius always seemed gay to me - or someone who would have had a lot of problems with relationships with girls -

Isn't it interesting that Harry was attracted to "popular" girls just as it seems his dad was attracted to the "popular" girl Lily!

I loved the Fleur-Bill pairing - especially when Fleur showed her loyalty and love for Bill after he was scarred - even Molly couldn't resist that !

Lets hope so...

I think we can pretty much guess with Naricissa and Lucius. Rich, pretty purebloods looking to purify their world.

But to the matter of soul-mates, I know what I used to think it was, but I'm not certain Jo, or my fellow posters mean the same thing.

What is a soul mate? Is the literary concept different that our expectations?

I always imagine Sirius--the dog--rather like the character Owen on Torchwood: omni sexual. I always get a good laugh from Jo having the Maruaders turn into things women call men: Stag, Wolf, Dog, and Rat.

I don't recall ever thinking Harry would go for Luna - I agree more with your perspective that Harry did in fact seem to go for the more popular girls, i.e. the harder to get girls! Interesting connection with his dad too, I hadn't thought of that.

But I like your point about the soul friend idea. Perhaps Harry had this type of friendship with Hermione - and perhaps that's why Ron was always a bit paranoid about that friendship - Harry and Hermione are friends on a very deep level, as the chapter in Godric's Hollow in the last book beautifully captures. I think theirs is the perfect example of a soul connection - just on a platonic level.

And Oryx, I agree as per one of my previous posts that the Harry/Ginny relationship wasn't developed to the point of "soul mates" in the books, so one has to assume that this relationship developed in later years.


You know, I've had this thought a few times, actually. And if Sirius was in fact gay, then I could claim that he was most attracted to James - in other words, I believe one could find "evidence" in the books to support this theory (just like one can now probably look back and find clear evidence that supports that Dumbledore was gay - hindsight is always so much clearer, and when you're looking at things from a particular perspective, it's much easier to see what you choose to see - even if someone doesn't look at it the way you do).


Hah! I'd never thought of that, but of course, it fits! It seems from some of the things Rowling has said in various interviews, she had rotten luck with men for most of her life. Whatever one feels a soul mate truly is, I hope she's found hers at last.

Oh, and lirene, that's just my take on the whole goat business - hope it helped.

I believe in soulmates because I believe I have one. I can't imagine being married to someone who isn't also a very close friend.

Lol

Aberforth Dumbledore and the Quest for a Better Bezoar, eh?

cobhome, I like your ideas. But let's not use words like "controversial" to refer to gayness. When we do that we continue to empower the stereotypes and condone the prejudice, in a way. We should regard it as a completely normal life choice...let the conservatives use words like controversial.

Funny, I always thought both Sirius and James were kind of bi-sexual...They seemed totally enamoured with each other and I think they loved each other deeply as friends and knew each other well. And remember Sirius had posters of half-naked Muggle women in his room? LOL! Typical teenager. His mother must have had a fit.

It's the conservatives who call it a life choice. Gay people are gay because (for the most part) its their nature to be so.


His mother's fit would be the reason to have the posters, whatever his inclination.

Great point...Must have been a Freudian slip on my part. Maybe I am ultra-conservative without realizing it (oh no!!!). Still, I do feel we need to "de-controversialize" certain things. For example, I still hear people referring to gay adoption and mixed-race relationships as "controversial." And there was a big part of me that thought those things were not controversial anymore. Hope you see my point.

No problem!

Does anyone here feel that Harry and Ron have such a close bond as James and Sirius did? I never thought that James or Sirius had bi-sexual feelings for each other; they seemed more to me as soul-friends.

Without getting too personal: Do you think you married your soul mate, or do you think you became close as souls as the relationship matured.

Sirius, motorbikes, dragon leather, and bikini clad girls. Classic rebel image with the come hither smile, swagger. His best girl was probably his bike. And Jo says he was too rebellious a spirit for a wife. I can believe that. His idea of a wife were his Mother, James' mother, and Lily. I'm just relieved Sirius wasn't in love with the fetching Lily, as Jo hints Lupin was.

I saw them as twins seperated before birth.

Since we waited a while to marry the relationship was on the way to the mature side back then. However some aspects of us being each other's soulmates were present all along, though it took some time to discover some of them, while others grew on us. From the start we shared many interests, ideas, ways of thinking. I think the added component was mostly about realizing where we differ and finding ways to include the differences.

Thanks for sharing. To me this sounds like you and your spouse worked at the relationship. That's a very practical approach to the phrase soul-mates. In my time, the phrase meant something more esoteric--a kind of recognition beyond sight, reason, a mixture of previous life and secret knowing. Others could actually see this aura of one ness.


I know. It was the age of Aquarius. It made sense at the time.

I think Jo's idea of the term soul mate may be closer to your experience. But I thought I saw that spiritual recognition in Ron and Hermione. And of course the first reaction, especially for the male in literature and even pop fantasy and television,is denial. Also note James seems to feel the same way about Lily when they first meet as Ron does Hermione. I got the feeling the last person James wanted to see sitting next to his mate Sirius at the Gryffindor table was that snooty red haired girl. Hemione and Ron worked at the relationship, it was tested and they still ended up together, so I see Ron and Hermione as no less soul mates than Harry or Ginny. But Jo could mean Harry and Ginny are not as contentious--but that is because Harry is very like Arthur Weasley, who will avoid a fight with a love one. Ron and Hermione possibly saw their own parents clash, compromise and make up. Persons who have never been in a committed relationship don't kow how much love and respect it takes to care if you make up with one's spouse or not.

This is a really interesting thread.



I don't really agree with that. It's not that Merope and Romilda know what they want and go for it, it's that they're almost obsessed with their guy and don't care how they get them so long as they get them.

I do think that Ginny was genuinely trying to get over Harry for practical reasons, but the pure-emotion voice in the back of her head was still hoping. I don't think it was a ploy to get him to notice her. As for Harry liking the popular girls, people who are popular with the opposite sex always attract more attention because it's like they have references. Harry obviously likes girls who are pretty and athletic, but with Cho it seemed that was the only thing she had that he likes. Ginny had those things and more.



Different people use the term 'soulmates' in different ways. J.K. probably meant it in that they were perfect for each other, rather than in that they are fated to be together or have a deep spiritual connection.



I actually saw him as a real heterosexual stereotype, a real guy's guy. I don't think he would have had problems with relationships with girls, I think he would have been the guy who swoops in and asks her out, goes on a couple of dates with her, gets bored and then stops calling.

Hah! Yes, I'd rather think that than anything else, thanks!


First, it was rather nice of Oryx to open up like that, as it certainly gives more perspective to this conversation. And like you Maime, I feel that relationships - however one wishes to describe them - require the practical approach of solid effort on both parts.

I, too, think of the term 'soul mates' as being something beyond explanation really - something that isn't tangible, but it's just....there.

And you touched upon what I agree is a good example of this kind of relationship with Ron and Hermione. They had an immediate reaction to one another - a seemingly negative one (bickering away since the beginning, those two), yet one could recognize the undercurrent of attraction there.

And yes, I can also see how this would be true of James and Lily (who seems like she would've actually been annoyed at the fact that she found James attractive).


Ah yes. Truer words were never spoken! If it's one thing I've learned - whatever one's relationship is with people - whether familial, friendship or romance - it takes effort on both sides to keep it going. Even if that relationship is classified as a connection of souls - and perhaps, even more so in that case!

I rather think Arthur and Molly Weasley reflect this type of relationship beautifully, and we should all be so lucky to have such a healthy partnership with someone.

(Bold mine)
Yeah...I could definitely see Sirius being that guy as well....that dog!

I have seen complaints that most people in the Potterverse end up with someone from highschool. Well, Wizarding Britain has one highschool. In order not to marry someone from highschool you'd have to marry either a partner with a greater age difference from your own, a foreigner or one of the rare people who were schooled either abroad or at home. Even when one marries someone one overlapped with at Hogwarts it doesn't mena the relationship started there. We do not know if Neville and Hannah started dating in HBP, DH or well after Hogwarts. I suppose Draco only got together with Daphne's sister after HBP, more likely after Hogwarts.

You know what I always wondered about - in terms of all the high-school romance that must've taken place at Hogwarts?

Why on earth would the founders have trusted the girls more than the boys in terms of allowing the girls access to the boys' dormitories?!

Seriously, it boggles my mind. Remember Romilda? What on earth's supposed to stop a girl like her from attempting to seduce a boy she liked by sneaking upstairs - and - if the boys were in fact not to be trusted by the founders, why on earth would they mind?

I'd imagine many a couple made little plans here and there to meet after everyone had gone to bed, with the girl going up to the boy's dormitories.

I can't imagine any of the boy's roommates "telling" on them either - particularly if you consider how close Harry, Ron, Neville, Dean and Seamus became.

On the contrary. I think they'd all think it was hysterical. Seriously. It must be reiterated that I wouldn't put anything past a female with romance on the brain! (Or a male, for that matter).

QUOTE(Oxymoronic @ Mar 3 2008, 02:21 PM)

Why on earth would the founders have trusted the girls more than the boys in terms of allowing the girls access to the boys' dormitories?!

I've often wondered the same thing myself! And I wouldn't put anything past a love crazed female either! There is certainly an undercurrent of mistrust here on the male side. Either the founders deduced that boys were more of a physical threat to the females; hence they're not being allowed access to the girls' dormitories. Or this is Jo's own mistrust of males being reflected in this instance.

Oryx, thanks for your candor; It certainly adds more depth to the discussion.

I think it's probably more to do with gender roles in the founders' day.

I don't see anything that bad about an eighteen year-old kissing a fifteen year-old. I'm sure Viktor was very sweet and gentlemanly with Hermione and certainly didn't take it any farther than she was comfortable with. If he'd pulled a McLaggen on her I don't think she'd still be writing to him the following year!

Well, I do think Rowling was having a laugh, but I think bestiality may have been involved. When asked directly what Aberforth did to the goat, Rowling's response was, "How old are you?" When the boy asking the question said he was eight, Rowling more or less dodged the question saying something about a goat that was easy to clean. If it was anything appropriate for an eight-year-old to hear I think she would have given a straight answer without asking his age first.

I agree, I didn't think that Ginny was using a ploy to get Harry by showing disinterest in him. She was infatuated with Harry from the first time she saw him in SS. She was ten years old. She maintained that girlhood crush on him for almost four years. You can tell she's still pining for Harry when she "almost" got to go to the Yule Ball with him. According to Hermione, Ginny met Michael Corner at the ball and started dating him toward the end of that year. Hermione was very much aware of Harry's interest in Cho and I'm betting that she told Ginny that Harry didn't return her feelings. What's a girl to do when she knows that the boy she fancies doesn't fancy her? Hermione's advice makes perfect sense in a situation like that, you have to try to get over him and move on.

I also think at that same time Hermione might have asked Ginny her opinion about Ron's feelings. Ginny definitely told Hermione that Ron has a tendency to be too big brotherly and protective of his only sister. That's referenced in chapter 16 of OotP when Hermione tells Ron, "this is exactly why Ginny hasn't told you she's seeing Michael, she knew you'd take it badly." This may have misled Hermione into thinking that Ron's similar reaction to her and Viktor was also big brotherly. During OotP Hermione does seem to have given up on Ron while she maintains her penpal relationship with Viktor. Perhaps it's because she thinks Ron doesn't return her feelings and is treating her like his sister.

I agree with your point - I do apologize re: the use of "controversial" to describe a perhaps gay man - my intent was that - I saw how much excitement there was over the DD is gay stuff and I did not wish to start such a discussion - I do not consider being gay a "controversial" thing.

It seems to me since JKR reflected real life by having at least one gay character in her story - DD - then there is every reason to think that other characters in the story would be gay too.



Yes - the relationship with James is what made me wonder if Sirius was gay -

JKR certainly peopled her story with lots of - to use her phrase - "bad boys" - Draco, Lucius, Sirius - I am well past the attracted to "bad boys" age so I admit to being astonished by the number of HP fans who swooned over those three fellows - particularly death eater Lucius - yuck! when it got down to it - Narcissa certainly seemed a better person than Lucius. I liked the way JKR used Narcissa as another example of mother love - her determination to protect her son and save her family gave at least one slytherin pureblood a noble face. And I do think that just as there was a hint that Remus was attracted to Lily I suspect that Severus admired Narcissa too.

cobhome I agree with all of the above.

"Yes - the relationship with James is what made me wonder if Sirius was gay" - cobhome

You know what made me wonder? OoP, Snape's Worst Memory chapter: "Sirius was lounging in his chair at his ease, tilting back on two legs. He was very good-looking: ... and a girl sitting behind him was eyeing him hopefully, though he didn't seem to have noticed."

That, plus the fact that, from the time we first meet Sirius in PoA till he dies at the end of OoP, we never hear anything of him having had girlfriends. Perhaps just an innocent omission on Jo's part, but I took it otherwise. In my mind, before DH was released, there was a very good possibility that Sirius Black was gay (either "out" or not to those who knew him). And I kind of liked that.

Of course, I would not have expected JKR to have said so explicitly in Books Three to Six. She had enough anti-Harry-Potter campaigns to be getting on with from certain groups. How sad that she couldn't come right out and introduce a gay character - particularly one on the "good" side -, I thought. But I completely understood. Anyway, for me - nobody else had to see it this way, of course -, she had dropped enough anvil-sized hints in what she did say and did not say about Sirius to allow for the fact that he might not have preferred girls.

It was particularly deliciously subversive because of the huge popularity that Black engendered among female HP fans; something which I believe (based on some of her interview comments) surprised Jo to some extent. (But how may of us heterosexual females have not, in this day and age, fallen for a guy only to sadly discover he is gay? (shy grin))

And then came DH. And the pictures of bikini-clad Muggle girls on the teenage Sirius' bedroom wall. To me, it was incongruous. No mention of girls or women as being a part of Black's life at Hogwarts or after, and now this. I just didn't buy it. I still thought Sirius was gay, and this wasn't going to change my mind. Yet the pictures on the wall were there.

So, I've got it figured out so that it satisfies me. Remember, Sirius left home and virtually went to live with the Potters when he was 16. So the pictures of the Muggle girls must have been put on his wall before that age. I put it down to the same reason he had large Gryffindor banners, and pictures of Muggle motorcycles, and a photo of the all-Gryffindor Marauders on his wall. To totally bug his parents. His anti-Muggle, anti-Muggle born, anti-half-blood parents. A son of theirs, lusting after dirty half-naked Muggle females? Scandalous! Disgraceful! Beyond contempt! Whether he actually did lust after them was not the point. It suited Sirius' purpose to have his parents think he did.



"And I do think that just as there was a hint that Remus was attracted to Lily I suspect that Severus admired Narcissa too." - cobhome

Before DH, I would have gone farther than that.

My very favourite chapter in all seven books (although I do love so many of them) is Spinner's End. And every time I have read that brilliantly-written chapter, I was convinced that Severus' feelings for Narcissa were more than just friends. A lot more - although I never felt that she had the same ... let's say, extreme fondness for him. As we learn in DH, I was wrong about that. It wasn't her who he loved. Still, i continue to feel that heat (dare i say sexual tension - on Snape's part, anyway) in how Jo wrote Spinner's End, even though Jo probably didn't mean for me to.


Laura



And on a personal note, I would like to thank Oxymoronic and rowena r for their caring support to a stranger. (LW)

But why would the fact that Sirius didn't seem to have noticed the girl indicate he was gay? It's surely very cool to be handsome and clever, have girls flocking after you, and pretend you don't notice their interest when they sit there looking longingly at you! That would have been perfectly in character for Sirius at 16. Two other possibilities: 1. Sirius had a girlfriend, just not this girl, so he simply wasn't interested in her no matter how longingly she looked. 2. He had other things on his mind, like meeting up with his friends after the exam, working what they were going to do later, etc. Girls were not important right then.

We don't hear about any of the MWPP gang having girlfriends at school, except for James, and he only started going out with Lily in seventh year. Just because Jo doesn't specifically mention any girlfriends, doesn't mean that none of those boys ever had a girlfriend at school, or that Remus, Sirius and Peter were all gay, simply because we don't get told about girlfriends. There was no reason in terms of the plot for Jo to go into their love lives whilst at school, so the absence of any mention of girlfriends doesn't mean Sirius was gay.

Alkari

As she was sitting behind him, perhaps he hadn't noticed. Or he simply wasn't interested in her. Or he was, but he was playing cool.

And if Sirius not noticing girls proving him to be gay - he isn't exactly described as looking at Remus either. Or James.

The adult Sirius we meet is a fugitive on the run, and later locked up in a hellhole. When would he meet a new girlfriend?

Yes, we do not know either way. Jo deliberately left this ambiguous. And we all have our theories, none to be proven. Just fun to speculate.

Eir de Scania, Sirius was not imprisoned until he was 21 years old. I was obviously not talking about him having girlfriends from Nov. 1, 1981 until June 1996. Of course he would not exactly be able to meet anyone while in Azkaban or in his house prison. I was talking about before then. At Hogwarts or in the four years after he graduated.

At any rate, I don't know if Sirius Black was gay or if he was the playboy of the Western world. (smile) I just think that if he were his generation's Roger Davies, at some point when Sirus opens his mouth in the books (eg - the Snape's Worst Memory scene, one of the conversations Black had with Harry telling Harry about himself - particularly at 12GP in OoP where they had several conversations, but also in PoA, or during the fire conversation in OoP when he and Lupin were talking to Potter about their (James, Lupin, Sirius) school days) part of what he says would include the fact that he had a lot of girlfriends, was engaged, fancied a particular girl at school or woman after finishing school.

This is a very, very handsome man after all, and the fact that Jo does not have him mention that aspect of his life (if it existed) to his godson is odd to me. Or Lupin could have been shown kidding Sirius about his many amours. As I said in my previous post, it could just be an omission on Jo's part. It just does not seem part of Sirius' character - as I read Sirius' character - to not talk about his women to Harry (and obviously I'm not talking about revealing all the details, but I can even envision the brash, reckless Sirius doing that with the 15-year-old boy, in whom he sees his best mate James). Even talking to Harry about this subject in the context of being bitter about how his time in Azkaban and Dumbledore's insistance that he stay inside is keeping him from enjoying the company of a pretty and willing witch.

(Brings to mind all the times Jo made a point of having us see Fred and George persuing women. Going down to the village to do card tricks for the pretty Muggle girl who works in the shop in HBP, and disappearing into the bushes with a couple of the Veela cousins in DH.)

Anyway, either view of Sirius Black in this regard is just as likely or not. As with so many things HP - I have learned - different people read exactly the same words, bring their individual interpretations to them, and come to totally different conclusions. (Big Silly Grin)



Laura


edited to add-
And, Alkari, I'm sure that Lupin did not have any girlfriends at school. But it had nothing to do with his being gay. Here is a shy, sickly boy with no self confidence. Not exactly great boyfriend material. Only the kind Lily Evans seems to take pity on him (along with James and Sirius - and Peter in his way - and Dumbledore) in school.

Nobody loved Lupin in a romantic way, either at Hogwarts or after. He didn't even have many friends of either gender. He did not believe he deserved love. He did not believe he had anything to offer a woman. This did not mean he did not crave heterosexual affection. He had just decided that, like everyone else in the WW, all the girls at school and the women after could not see beyond his dirty, disgusting, incurable illness of Lycanthropy - as the WW, the MoM and Remus himself would view it -, and that these girls and women felt nothing but revulsion for him. And he was probably right on that. Until ... well, you know. (sniff)

Jo did, in fact, tell us why Remus did not have what normal non-werewolf heterosexual boys and men crave and enjoy in terms of female companionship. All that stuff about him not being invited to dinner parties, about him being shunned, about him not being able to work and earn money, etc. There is no comparison between his situation (as a boy or a man) and that of the robust, handsome, clever, 'fanciable," well-off Sirius from the pureblood Black family (as a boy and as a man pre his imprisonment at age 21).

Or like most good looking boys or popular boys--think of Krum who was not good looking but famous and popular--he was looking for the one girl who wasn't falling all over herself to get his attention. I didn't think it said anything about his popularity. How many songs have we heard with lines like, he/she doesn't even notice me?

I didn't think Sirius was gay. But in his family "commitment" meant duty. One marries to carry on family tradition and pure bloodline, things Sirius was in lifelong rebellion against. On the other hand, getting a girlfriend because he was rich and good looking may have seemed just too easy--no challenge.

Snape doesn't seem the bad boy although Jo calls him this. He's the troubled boy, the one with baggage, and a possible dangerous behavior disorder. Run, unless you're into co-dependant relationships and have access to a therapist.

But Sirius--before Azkaban--seemed the bad boy, Rhett Butler type, (just not abusive) you have to approach with caution until he's about forty and tired of rebellion. When he says he's not looking for any thing serious, he's not making clever quip on his name. He's looking for a fellow rebel. Keep running.

Snape is idealistic. Saints protect all of us from men and women who expect their partners and spouse to live up to some ideal. James is comfortable, mallable, but underneath the male strutting of a fifteen year old, decent, like Arthur. Do I think Arthur might have behaved like James towards Snape? This is the man who got into a public brawl with Malfoy, although he was provoked. I imagine he and Rosier or Malfoy or the older Death Eaters had their moments. When it comes to people who hold ideas like the Death Eater, decent people have to mature to the point where they apply the rules of fair play they give to everyone else to some one like a Snape or Malfoy.

I think Sirius would have made an excellent single parent, but we need different skills to become a good spouse. Sirius seems like the type, even though, if he is expected to settle down and act like a grown-up, would expect a grown-up to act like a grown up. Sirius would need someone like Arthur as a wife, because I think he would turn into Molly. Molly gives off vibes of the rebel who choose to settle into loving but comfortable marriage where her spouse would let her have the reigns but without the overwhelming responsibility of running an estate.

Consider Ginny. She throws that bat bogey hex without a thought, so does Hermione, she can slap Malfoy and no one talks of a rivalry, or fair play. Many feel the females are well within their rights to put these cheeky boys in place. Why is that?

By the way, did anyone like me get the idea that Blaise's comment covered up a possible interest Ginny? When she accused him of posing, I started to wonder just who is Blaise posing for?

We don't have any evidence of this. I would imagine there were girls other than Lily who felt protective of Lupin, were possibly, especially as they were teenagers, rather intriqued with his mystery. It is doubtful if the Lily, the Maruaders and Severus Snape were the only five people to have deduced Lupin's secret.

I don't think she was surprised by Sirius' popularity. He was supposed to be the sexy man, he is described as handsome, he was just too rebelious for spending time of trivial things such as an actual girlfriend. What supposedly surprised Rowling is Snape's popularity, because he is described in uncomplimentary words - but it is she who created his mistique, by revealing only little bits about his past and leaving us wondering, by leaving his motivations until the end and of course with all the controversy about his loyalties. I never had a 'bad boy' stage in real life, but a fictional one? That's a different story.

I don't recall Harry and Sirius having "several conversations" at GP12. Actually, I found the lack of conversation remarkable, you would imagine Sirius being happy to sit down and tell Harry stories about James and Lily. But that would probably have ruined the plot. Just as Sirus giving Harry the Mirror before the very last minute would have ruined it.

But as Sirius never told Harry about his personal life, he had no chance of even a casual mention of girlfriends. Or boyfriends. Jo has said Sirius was too busy being a rebel to marry, but a rebel without a girlfriend (or several) seems unlikely. Personally, I think the posters were Jo's way of teling us Sirius was straight, but I could be wrong. We can only hope the Scottish Book clear things up.


Isn't that more fanon than canon? The only glimpse of young!Remus we get is in SWM, and isn't described as sickly, just tired. I don't get the impression from canon that he's shy either, just very reserved. Or very English.

QUOTE(Oryx @ Mar 4 2008, 10:46 AM)

I never had a 'bad boy' stage in real life, but a fictional one? That's a different story.

I never did either; fictional bad boys always appealed more to me. Sirius, Lupin, James and Snape very much remind me of the characters portrayed in "The Outsiders".

"Isn't that more fanon than canon? The only glimpse of young!Remus we get is in SWM, and isn't described as sickly, just tired."

Since I do not and never have read any fanfiction, that is not where I got my information re Lupin looking sickly at school, Eir de Scania. Here's the book canon on that --

OoP, chapter Snape's Worst Memory, "And two seats from the girl ... was Remus Lupin. He looked rather pale and peaky ..."

And from PoA, Chapter Five, p. 59 (Raincoast): "The stranger (Lupin) ... looked ill and exhausted." and on the next page, " 'Wonder what he teaches?'" said Ron, frowning at Professor Lupin's pallid profile."

And from Oop, chapter Three, p.47; "Remus Lupin stood nearest to him. Though still quite young, Lupin looked tired and rather ill."

(There is no reason to believe that Lupin just started to look ill as an adult, as he had the same illness as a child and a teenager.)



"I would imagine there were girls other than Lily who felt protective of Lupin, were possibly, especially as they were teenagers, rather intriqued with his mystery." - Maime the Hunter

Not according to Lupin. PoA, chapter 18: "For the first time ever I had friends. Three great friends. Sirius Black, Peter Pettigrew and James Potter." Sure sounds to me like Lupin only thought he had three friends at school. (ie - that Jo is telling us so.)

This is an excellent thread! Thanks Maime!



This is how I saw Sirius. Think Fonzie from Happy Days. Sirius seemed to me to be considered the "coolest" of the four Marauders. I never saw more in his friendship with James than a very deep friendship based on acceptance and a shared sense of fun/humor. I'm sure Sirius was pleased that James, a dyed in the wool Gryffindor, saw past the Black family's pure-blood mania in order to see that Sirius was different. That acceptance allowed for a deep and valuable friendship.

As for Ginny, I think she always harbored that secret hope for Harry, but she had sense enough not to waste her teenage years pining for someone who had yet to open his eyes to her. And I think that was very admirable, very wise on Ginny's part. She and Harry work on so many levels - they have some shared interests and agree on the biggies. One of the most important things I think in their relationship is that Ginny can bring some much needed light-heartedness to Harry, who tends to be brooding and intense. Ginny helps him snap out of that. I read Harry as having a tendency toward depression. (and who could blame the poor boy???)

Ron & Hermione are my favorite. Maybe it's because my own husband and I are complete opposites...in all but the important things. I think I may have mentioned this somewhere and I don't mean to bore you with trivial details, but in the "big" things in life, my husband and I think the same way - politics, spirituality, child-rearing, finances, etc. But in the way of hobbies and interests, we're quite different. We have a few shared interests, but they stem from one of us being willing to learn about the other's interest and making an effort to participate with the other. I think Ron & Hermione were like that. The things that mattered, they agreed on. The other things made life interesting. Ron is my favorite character for lots of reasons, and I can honestly say that if I had been in his world, he would have been the one I would have wanted. I think he & Hermione were good for each other.

Molly & Arthur just make me smile. Forget about anti-feminist nonsense. Molly enjoyed taking care of her family. If choosing the thing you love to do and doing it isn't what being a feminist is all about, I don't know what is. It's not about Molly not being allowed to work outside the home. It's the fact that she enjoys it. And I dare anyone who thinks that a stay-at-home Mom is "just" a housewife, or "just" a stay-at-home Mom to try it for a few days. Then see how they like that word, "just." (And believe it or not, I am a full-time-working mom.)

I don't know if Lupin had feelings for Lily or not. It's possible, but I'm not convinced of it. I think it's likely that Lupin tried very hard to be resigned to the fact that, in his mind, no one could ever love him that way because of his "furry little problem." We all know that to be an incorrect assumption about himself, but I think that's how he felt.

Romance in literature? I can tell you the ones that fascinated me the most, other than Ron & Hermione, of course, and a short version of the reason why:
Rhett and Scarlett (oh that scoundrel! But what a wonderfully, terrifying scoundrel he is!) Gone With the Wind
Marianne Dashwood and Col. Brandon. (I would have loved to let him take care of me.) Sense & Sensibility
Anne Shirley and Gilbert Blythe (she reminded me a lot of myself, but I could have strangled her for taking so long to forgive Gilbert!) Anne of Green Gables, etc.
Jo March, Laurie, Professor Baer (I was convinced she completely messed up her life by rejecting Laurie until I met the Professor and realized he was the only one who could match Jo and indeed live with her.) Little Women

Thanks again Maime - this is one of the best threads I've participated in in a while.

I cannot agree that telling us that an eleven/twelve yearl old boy had three male friends at school is the same as telling us that no young girl was interested in Lupin or that he was not interested in girls. Different situation altogether.

According Jo he did. But it's not in the books, so I tend to agree with you. But Lupin is not likely to make his feelings known--even to his friends.

Anne Shirley and Gilbert Blythe remind me of Ron and Hermione. I love Anne's series. I'm not certain when certain Gothic or period romances started to get on my nerves. Maybe it was when I recognized the difference between strong feelings and what love and commitment were really like. Perhaps this is why I'm singularly unmoved by Snape's supposed love of Lily.

"It was particularly deliciously subversive because of the huge popularity that Black engendered among female HP fans; something which I believe (based on some of her interview comments) surprised Jo to some extent." - Laura W
"I don't think she was surprised by Sirius' popularity." - Oryx




From the NBC Dateline interview with Meredith Viera, July 29, 2007 -

JKR: "Just before Phoenix was published … It's the first time I ever went online and looked at the Harry Potter fan sites. I'd just never done it before. And one afternoon I did. And boy, that was a bit of a revelation. I had no idea how much stuff was out there. And one of the fan sites I-- I found was-- dedicated entirely to Sirius Black. I had no idea he had his own fan site, his own fan club, started by these teenage girls, I think. They all loved Sirius."


LW

Hmmm, she also says:

Emphasis mine.

http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/fansite_view.cfm?id=1

As Maime the Hunter points out, that was Remus telling Harry how he felt as an 11-12 year old boy when he went to school and shared a dormitory with three other boys who treated him as 'normal'. They didn't know his secret at that time - they just accepted him as a friend. And the fact that Remus-the-werewolf was a social outcast as an adult says nothing about his status at school, because - as far as we know from the books - the only students to know about his condition were his three friends and Snape (after the Prank). We don't know when Lily found out about him: it may not have been until after they left school, because she seems to treat Snape's theories as just theories.

Therefore, it is entirely possible that Remus had girlfriends, or at least friends who happened to be girls. After what we see of him in HBP and DH, I can well believe he wasn't willing to let himself get too close to them emotionally, but there is nothing to say he didn't have girlfriends. Not all girls go for the handsome Sirius types, LOL, and I can certainly see some girls being attracted to the quieter Remus, even if he did look pale and sickly at times. And Peter probably went out with one or two girls, even if they only 'used' him to get closer to his friends James and Sirius.

The point is, we know very little about their social lives at school; indeed, we also know very little about the family backgrounds of James, Remus and Peter. James was an only child from a wealthy Pureblood family; Remus was a half-blood, with apparently loving parents, and we assume he had no siblings. Peter in 1981 had an elderly mother, but we know nothing of his father, or whether he was Pureblood. Because so much about MWPP has been the subject of fanfiction, it is often difficult to separate out ideas that are widely-accepted fanon, as distinct from what is canon from the books and from Jo's own comments and interviews.

As for Sirius talking to Harry in GP12 about his schooldays, about James and Lily, and his own family, I'm with Eir de Scania - the lack of such conversations in OotP, or even the implication that they occurred, is quite astonishing, and really something where you have to just suspend belief. Just as it is (for me) quite unbelievable that in all those weeks of living at GP, and helping clean up the house, Harry and his friends never even noticed Regulus's room, and Harry himself never went into Sirius's room, even to say good night occasionally!

Of course, the books from GOF onwards are already quite long enough without JKR going into all sorts of extra material. There are no plot reasons for her to mention anything about the schoolboy romances of MWPP, apart from James being besotted with Lily, so the fact that we don't get any details about their girlfriends isn't surprising. The key plot point was the friendship between the boys. Certainly, the Muggle girlie posters on Sirius's walls at GP12 could be seen as just a sign of rebellion, but they are also just as likely to indicate he had a normal healthy teenage interest in girls. Harry of course doesn't tell us whether any of those Muggle girls were draped artfully across motorbikes!

Alkari

Regulus and Sirius' rooms were at the topmost landing. If Sirius wasn't in the habit of turning in early then Harry wouldn't have had a reason to go to that floor. (I know, it is a stretch anyway.)


This reminds me of what my highschool teacher used to say of the love poems of Nathan Alterman. She used to say she loved his poems, but in her worst nightmares she wouldn't want to be loved by such a person. Alterman's love in his poems and plays is obsessive, possessive and lethally jealous - for example see An Ancient Melody (in translation) his loyalty isn't to the woman but either to his art or to an abstraction of love, as he understands it. And his poems only get worse when they are from the woman's POV - Alterman's ideal woman is willing to endure any hardship and suffering - from poverty and hard work to betrayal and being thrown out to the street - the only thing she refuses to do is to forget him. These poems were set to music and they have been popular for decades, but I doubt many of those who appreciate them would want any of that in their lives.

Oh my yes - Marianne and Col Brandon - and my total fav - Jo March and Professor Baer - lol - perfect couples!




The Snape-Lily pairing is the most unconvincing feature of the HP story for me- and given that it allegedly is the powerful motivation behind Snape's behavior for almost 20 years - really leaves a huge hole in the story for me - perhaps it is because as you say - the difference between love and commmitment versus attraction - it seems to me that love at some level requires reciprocation - and since Snape's "love" for Lily is clearly not reciprocated ( beyond friendship) it can't really be love.

Remus I think is the perfect example of what I said in a previous post - guys you might not have noticed in high school but as an adult you realize are the best sorts of men - he probably was shy while at school - but I bet there were a few girls who recognized his better qualities - but perhaps his lack of confidence and his small "werewolf" problem prevented him from persuing those women - or his major crush on Lily!