It's been Ages since I checked into this idea. And there were plenty of doubts; but is it possible, or even likely, that Harry might at some time in his life (born in the 1990s) have read J.R.R. Tolkien's books, including The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, etc.? If so, how would he consider the use or nature of magic?

Separately, there have been numerous threads comparing and contrasting HP and LotR. I personally see significant conceptual ideas reflected in both works. Forexample, Wizards can be known (albeit at times metaphorically) to have "Cold Feet." (vis. Socks in the Mirror of Erised, or Climbing all over Middle Earth in the cold without proper footwear)

Food for Thought? Sorry, no pumpkin juice!

ELC

i have never read nor have i seen the movies of LotR, but it is very possible that he did.
But if you remeber, he doesnt like reading unless he has to or if its about something that really caught his eye(like the quidditch book)
but on the other side of that, it might have caught his eye...he might have been drawn to it.

Well, as Harry never ever was either given anything useful or joyful nor any money for himself he wouldn't have read anything at all. I think it was mentioned that he read some comics but even if he could lay his hands on some of Dudleys books - well, I don't think that Dudley was intellectually up to LotR... It might even be that the Dursleys didn't allowed any kind of books in their house that have any sort of magic in them (reminds me on some sorts of Christians but that's not the topic)....

I don't think Harry did, but JKR most certainly did.
When I was 14 I needed to read a book for a class project. I started on the Fellowship of the Ring, well they started on about Bilbo Baggins 112 birthday and such and there were 2 following books I ended up reading Siddhartha instead. The LOTR is pretty deep stuff for an 11 year old, now Hermione probably read them.
BTW. After high school I've read and enjoyed the LOTR many times but it is a much more deep piece of reading then Harry Potter. You can read the 7 books of Harry Potter and start all over again but after reading LOTR you probably aren't emotionally ready to read them again for quite a while.

There is an older version of this topic which can be found here. You are welcome to read the previous posts and discussions, and you are more than welcome to quote the posts in this brand new, shiny thread.

Happy posting

Lirene
LL Moderator

No, I don't think he did. He could not have bought himself a copy, since he only got wizarding money, and I doubt that the Dursleys would buy one to him.

I'll give you that Dudley was not keen on books; at least not as a student. But what about post Voldemort? Then that the cat's out of the bag (no, not McGonagall) perhaps he might have taken a look. Even Filch might have gotten something out of it (Did he survive the last battle?). Dursleys might have viewed LotR as a "classic", required reading in the 60's, even for corporate executives. Might have "looked good" on the mantle, no? The books (hard cover) might have been weighty enough to use as projectiles against Dudley's favorite punching bag!

I don't know, maybe Giny read the books and compared notes with Hermione. I bet the kids read them though.

ELC

Well, I can hardly imagine Harry living with the Dursleys after Voldemort was dead and I'm VERY confindent that he no longer served as Dudley's punching bag. So even if the Dursleys suddenly found a fashionable urge in them to stock up on LotR this mightn't have affected Harry at all. Maybe he read LotR to his children...

With so many Muggle raised children going to Hogwarts at the age of 11, I think its highly likely that some of them would have read 'the Hobbit' at the very least - though how many of them would have read all of the LotR by that age I'm not sure and after they had started at Hogwarts children may be less inclined to read that kind of book as the'd be Living the Magic sort of thing!

Only my humble opinion of course!

QUOTE(emmytbeers @ Jun 6 2008, 01:20 AM)

i have never read nor have i seen the movies of LotR, but it is very possible that he did.
But if you remeber, he doesnt like reading unless he has to or if its about something that really caught his eye(like the quidditch book)
but on the other side of that, it might have caught his eye...he might have been drawn to it.

I can actually envision Harry reading L.O.T.R.; basically because of what you said, emmytbeers. I believe it would very much hold his interest; just like Quidditch Through The Ages.

I wonder if Harry was ever introduced to any Muggle fairy tales; we hear Hermione mentioning to Ron in DH that neither she nor Harry had ever heard of the Tales of Beedle the Bard; she mentioned Cinderella and Snow White. Harry really didn't say anything; I'm sure he had heard of them. I wonder if Petunia ever read those to Harry

If you consider laying on your back under an open window on The HOTTEST day on record, listening intently to the muggle television for just the tiniest scrap of news about . . .

Well, even though anyone from a wizarding family might consider this person "Mental," it does show at least that Harry at age 15 (or thereabout) knew how to "use" the muggle media to pick out meaningful information, meaningful for him.

Media.

Have most teenagers in Surrey heard of The Lord of the Rings? O.K. Have many teenagers in Surrey . . ? Well, what about a few then? Fine. That'll do to illustrate my point.

By the mid 1990s, Harry was familiar enough to navigate both worlds: Magic & Muggle. He's seen at least one troll; and helped get it knocked out. He's met elves (almost got accidentally murdered by one). Somewhere either in DADA or in Hogwarts library (Prof. Binn's History of Magic class?) he's heard of a Balrog. He knows that amulets can be "bewitched." And so if you add all this up and put it together with muggle ideas about wizards, you might find Harry brooding over a covert set of Hobbit and the rest of them.

Blyme, he probably understands the literature better than I do! ('course that's not saying much. But it makes my point.)

What do you think?

ELC

The "other Muggle literary works" part seems to be getting left out. I am sure that Harry, like most (if not all) Muggle-raised wizards, read Muggle books. For instance, I can see Harry at the school library checking out something like Artemis Fowl, The Hardy Boys, or something like that. But I think it is highly unlikely that most eleven year olds would have already read LOTR (before they came to Hogwarts). Hermione might very possibly, but I don't think any of the others would have. Those raised by wizards are different altogether. They probably had heard of very famous Muggle books but, depending on the attitude of their parents, might read them or might not. I doubt Draco Malfoy read any Muggle books, but Ron and his siblings very possibly did. I would not be surprised if many of the third years and up read LOTR at least once during a summer holiday, though - just not when they were so young.

Not according to this. She may have started LotR, kind of unclear from the context, but has not finished it. Time Magazine may have gotten it wrong, of course...is there anything out there to rebut this article?

Hermione might have. But I doubt Harry and Ron would read a muggles' story, considering both of them aren't very interested in reading, even back at their school years.

I agree: With her abnormality and bossy demeanor I don't see Hermione having many friends, she probably took solace from books from a very early age. The Dursleys would never permit the LOTR in their house, they don't hold with fantasy and such nonsense. Unless Molly read it to him as a child Ron wouldn't have read it, it's pretty heavy reading for a kid. Ron and Harry wouldn't have had the time to read it after they started school, I imagine it takes a casual reader a month or more to slog their way through the trilogy.

It says in the first book that Harry never got letters from the library saying that he had a fine bcacause he didn't have a library card and we know he didn't have money to buy books so probably not. Also, we know how much Ron loves to read so once again probably not. Only Hermione may have read the Lord of the Rings

Ron was a normal kid, he read comic books.

Eh now, how is it that Dudley's computer wasn't hooked up to the Internet? How do we know Harry didn't Google ™ Tolkien or the others on the sly occasions he was left alone at 4 Privet?

In the first book, when Harry is given Dudley's room that Dudley used for storing all of his broken toys, it says that everything in that room is broken... except for a large shelf of books that look to be the only thing in the room thats never been touched.

It never says if Harry reads those books, or what books they were. But seeing as how they were in his new room i can only assume he cracked into a few of them.

Question is, as those books were probably gifts to Dudley from his parents, what types of books would Vernon and Petunia buy? LOTR, or anything that involved magic, would probably not be on the list...

-Ash-

Well it was stated that only Hermione int he trio read muggle stories due to the fact that Hermione was a muggle. Ron had never lied an eye on muggle books because he was a wizard. As for Harry even though he lived with muggles, they were probably too selfish to allow him to EVEN read books. As for Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter is set to 10 years back from our present time so I don't know if Lord of the Rings even existed. But if it did I'm sure it would have been popular in both the wizarding world and muggle world.

RAVENCLAW PRIDE!

The Lord of the Rings came out in 1965. While "The Hobbit" prequel to LOTR was written as a children's story, LOTR isn't, it would have certainly been beyond Dudley's reading level. So Harry couldn't have read it there.
There's also no way that the Dursleys would have permitted a fantasy book concerning magic and mythical lands into their house since they were trying to stamp the magic out of Harry. Look how mad Vernon got when Harry said he had a dream about a flying motorcycle.

It came out in 1965? Wow. Well in that case there is a slight possibility that Ron would have read it, I see him reading into those types of
novels. As you stated, the Dursleys were very sensitive to the topic of magic, so I don't believe a book supporting it would
be alllowed in the household. As for Hermione I don't see her reading a magic book, porbably too "mature" for her as I would say.

Ron read comic book about "Mad Muggles" Unless Molly read it to the kids as a bed time story Ron wouldn't have never read it, it was well beyond his reading level before he started Hogwarts and he never had the time afterwards.
Hermione was the only member of the trio who did deep reading for fun.
The LOTR isn't a kids book, Tolkien's writing style can be ponderous even for good reader, not as bad as reading "War and Peace" but you don't read LOTR over the week end.

Just needed to add a thought here. Professor J. R. R. Tolien's Hobbit was written/published in the 1950s. He supposedly wrote it at the same time as his friend, C. S. Lewis wrote the Narnia works.

They both based their "fantasy books" on their experiences during WWI. (Forexample: Tolkien was instructed to tame horses for the Royal Calvalry. After the War, the calvalry became mechanized. But it was his experience with the horses that some say he based the Kingdom of Rohan on.)

Tolkien as well was a devout Catholic. His works were indeed seized immediately by children and adults alike. It was almost considered for a family to be "out of touch" if they didn't own a set of them. Sort of a "Good overcomes Evil type."

Thus to the Dursleys, LotR might have been an "acceptable" shelf-series; and Harry was never meant to have that room anyway. Hmmmmm. Any takers?

ELC

Do I think the Durleys would allow the LOTR in their house?
No.
The Dursleys considered the "M" word to be obscene.
Petunia called her own sister a "freak" and said her and other freaks needed to be separated from normal folks.
Did Lily and Petunia's parents read the LOTR?
Certainly a possibility, more likely then Vernon's parents.
The most likely readers of the LOTR would have been the Grangers.
They were college educated (dentist) and they grew up when the books were popular.
Since it likely that her parents read the LOTR and Hermione was a reader, she is the most likely member of the trio to either have read or had the LOTR read to her by her parents.
Molly might have read it to her children, we don't know how popular it was in their world.
But Harry wasn't a reader, unless it was about Quidditch and I don't believe Petunia ever read him any bedtime stories.

I have never seen or read any of the LotR books, except for the Hobbit, I have read the Hobbit. I don't really think HP and LotR are the same, but then again, I don't know too much about LotR to judge.

Even if LotR books were in stores while Harry was a kid, do you really think the Dursley's would have let Harry read it?
Ron wouldn't haven't read it because he was raised by wizards.
And if Hermione had read LotR, I think she would have mentioned in the books somewhere that she read magical books before she came to Hogwarts, even if she didn't mention LotR specifically.

I think that Hermione's oddness (magic) made her loner in the muggle world and she retreated into the world of books.
Now the question, did a fictional character read another work of fiction is really rather absurd.
Hermione mentions that she loves books and never mentions any of the books that she read before Hodwarts.
What's she going to say when there trying to save the Sorcerers Stone, "I read that Gandalf used his staff to make writing appear on the stone wall by the lake"?

The Dursleys would not allow Harry to read anything or be sensitised to anyting concerning magic. That would have been out of the question.

Agreed. If the majority of the population around is against magic, and you are a believer, of course you are going to retreat, its normal. Until such time one is aware that there are people similar like them, same beliefs etc etc, then they start coming out of their shell to either find them, or obtain more information about them.
What makes this absurd? Who's to say that ficitional characters don't read another work of fiction? It is fiction after all... You may need to expand your argument on that statement, or maybe i'm just missing the point.


I think you have way underestimated Hermione's intelligence. I think we can safely assume that Hermione has read 'a lot' of books. With that amount of reading, one does learn from it, and also does learn how to interpret what they have just read. I can't see Hermione, just picking up any old stick off the floor, incorrectly assume it as a staff, and then starts blubbering a spell to make writing appear. Being a bookworm that she is, she would have some background knowledge (even if its off target on occaision) of what a staff looks like, where to get one, how to use it etc etc. A bit like when one wants to learn when to drive a car. You need know what a car looks like, how to hop in, turn on the ignition, and also, have studied and passed for your license to be considered even competent in driving one.

Ok, now I have a question. In Hogwarts, they have History of Magic lessons, right? If so, why can't LOTR be compulsory text for the students? Just like I (and I assume quiet a few others) have had to read Shakespeare as compulsory english text to learn about the history of English language, why can't the same be applied for Hogwarts students when it comes to learning about magic?

You misunderstand me, Since I previously posted that the Grangers are likely to have read LOTR considering their age and education (growing up in the 60s/70s) LOTR was very popular.
I believe it likely that a reader like Hermione could have very well have read them too.
The only book that she mentions constantly is "Hogwarts a History" this is because that's how JKR passes needed information to the reader. But of course it certainly not the only book Hermione's read.
I would imagine that unlike Harry and Ron she reads a books that cover a variety of subjects.

Apologies for the misunderstanding here , but i have read the whole thread and agree that the Grangers would have read LOTR for the reasons you mentioned. Thing is, we as readers haven't read "Hogwarts a History" ourselves, so we can't comment on everything that it contains. I think Hermione uses that book as her building block to ground her foundations on the magic world. Again, this is all based on my assumption. In regards to my other comments, just trying to raise awareness that what one posts can be interpreted from another angle (which makes debate much more interesting) .
We don't exactly know what the full curriculum is for Hogwarts students, which brings me back to what this post is actually about. I would like to know what others here think with my question at the end of my previous post .

Although there is some overlap in the characters, the Hobbit is not a LotR book. They are not even remotely similar.
Hermione reads everything. I think more to the point would be, is there a book that Hermione hasn't read?

Well, if the trio had read LoTR then they might have known not to wear the Horcrux. Grr. And as for Dumbledore with the ring...

But seriously, I'd like to think that the wisest wizards would recognise the value of Muggle literature in understanding the human condition. We know they read the Bible (gravestones in Godric's Hollow) and I'd like to think that Dumbledore knows his Shakespeare...

Excelent point, Casey V.

I happen to be among those who believes that magic actually does exist. Does it govern my decisions and actions? No. Yet fiction, magic or otherwise, indeed does affect my decisions and actions. Some fiction, cast in the theme of "magic," may have some very powerful moral lessons (HP?). Tolkien is one of those authors whose works have proven very instructive for me. Of note, the Lord of the Rings trilogy was commissioned as a sequel to The Hobbit. These books were household books.

Hermione, imo, was not the only major character in Harry Potter to read Tolkien. Harry was perhaps forced to read from the books by his circumstances. And he could have obtained bits or sets in any of a number of ways. I'm sure that Dumbledore was immensely familiar with the works (I wouldn't be surprised if he Imperiused Tolkien to write some lengthy passages about Gandalf -- and to leave some of them out).

What's more, Draco's read a few pages from his father's library. The only thing is that Lucius' copy has been "edited" to make the Bad Guys Good, and the Good Guys Bad. Sirius must have had a copy, as well. Not to mention the Longbottoms. Kingsley's read the series more than once.

But do you want to hear something really funny? Although Vernon and Petunia "might" not have wanted to have a set, due to their secret problem; nonetheless, Aunt Marge -- a very cultured woman -- would have insisted that Vernon keep one in the house to impress guests. So where did the set end up? Dudley's 2nd bedroom (In fact Marge might have given Vernon an earfull about how the Potter boy should be made to read them -- just to knock some culture into him!).

i think that Harry might have read LotR since he lived as a muggle. Hermione might have since she is muggle born and really smart. I'm not sure Ron would have heard about the muggle books. I think that if they had read LotR they could have seen a whole lot of new information that would have helped him in book seven.

I would ike to point out now that the last book was set in 1997. Now I'm not sure what year LotR came out, but if it was anywhere after 1991 ( Aprox. when Harry started his first year at Hogwarts ) then they must not have read it, because they would probably be too wrapped up in the magical world.

The Lord of the Rings was published 1954-1955 I think.

Also it's not often considered a "cultured" book - too popular, too much in the fantasy genre. The Dursley's would more likely line their shelves with Dickens, Thackeray, Shakespeare, Hugo etc. I can't see the LotR being tolerated in the Dursley home.

Wasn't there a comment in the first book that Harry didn't even have a library membership? So the only way he would have encountered the books is if they were set books for school.