During the post-DH days, I read a number of complaints about the endless camping scenes. Even Stephen King hinted that these were somewhat slow moments in the book. I, however, kept scratching my head. What was so bad about those passages? (Mind you, I liked the Kitty and Levin storyline in Anna Karenina.)

So, what's with the camping? What purpose did it serve? Was it dull? Was it a failure in the plotting? Or was it deliberate? Did it succeed as it was intended?

Now, I have read a lot of comments and I don't think I've had anyone adequately explain the disappoint in things tent-wise. I hope we can have the other side represented.

As far as I know, the camping trip begins with the escape from the Ministry at the end of chapter 13 to the forced march to Malfoy Manor at the beginning of chapter 23. There's a lot that happens in those intervening nine chapters and they're not all tentpoles and cookouts.

In The Thief, we find several theives. Hermione has stolen the locket from Umbridge, Harry has taken the magical eye from Umbridge's door, Grindelwald (as yet unknown) has stolen something that Voldemort wanted to steal now: the Elder Wand.

In The Goblin's Revenge, we learn about the attempted theft of a fake Sword of Gryffindor. But we also learn that the true sword can destroy Horcruxes. Specifically, it was used by Dumbledore to destroy the ring: the Resurrection Stone.

The next two chapters, Godric's Hollow and Bathilda's Secret, form a Christmas ghost story in the English tradition we're familiar with in Dicken's A Christmas Carol. And only the first six pages can be said to involve camping. And those dwell on the Sword and the mysterious symbol of the Hallows.

The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore has very little camping. It's more Rita Skeeter than anything. (And I'll leave out any comparison to the three new books out on Obama.)

The Silver Doe is about camping. And Harry finds the Sword and Ron returns to destroy the Locket. And Xenophilius Lovegood, despite the title, is about more camping. And with the destruction of the Locket, the Trio's focus shifts to the Deathly Hallows.

The Tale of the Three Brothers is not about camping. However, the brothers are travelling along a lonely, winding road, not unlike our Trio. But the Trio believe they've seen one of the Hallows: The Cloak. And yes, The Deathly Hallows is a return to camping.

So, what about this camping? Is it, to use Hermione's words about the trips to Godric's Hollow and the Lovegood's, "a complete waste of time"? Or is it a wandering in the wilderness in which we are meant to learn, as Lee Jordan closes Potterwatch, to "Keep each other safe: keep faith"?

Of course, this is not camping by choice. The Trio are homeless. So are Dean, Ted, Dirk, Griphook and Gornuk. The Trio are truly wandering in the wilderness with the staples of a Harry Potter plot stripped away. There is an overwhelming theme of helplessness, dread and inevitable death.

Is this trip to the wilderness meant to show us how the choices presented by Nature, red in tooth and claw, are not so easy? That line about Nature comes from Tennyson's great poem In Memoriam A.H.H. or The Way of the Soul.




Any thoughts? Is the camping really solitude and meditation? Is it a metaphor for grief and sorrow? Is it a lament for the passing of childhood?

My first read through the camping scenes in DH was frustrating. I was upset with how extended it was, it dragged and dragged. Now, after several reads, there's so much going on with in the plot, and if you read between the lines, you gained so much out of it's importance. Their situation in the woods was mainly about survival and uncertainty. A WAR was going on and they were being MAN HUNTED!

We know that Jo cornered the trio into a situation that if they showed their faces into Death Eater infiltrated society that they would die as well as anyone associated with them! What did we expect? Grimmauld Place was fun while it lasted, but they couldnt stay in that house apperating back and forth the entire book!

We knew Harry couldnt tell anyone what Dumbledore made him swear not to tell, except for Ron and Hermione. In the thrird chapter, Lupin tells Kingsley the last thing Dumbledore said to them, "Trust Harry." Harry's too loyal to Dumbledore, remember Fawkes and the sword! Harry was by no means going to hang around the Order in DH were Mrs Weasley would continue to hen peck them like at the Burrow.

This is were I felt, at the time, it fell short in adventure. I think expectations were so great before the book came out, we all bamboozled ourselves to believe that the Order would help Harry the entire time and there would be one exciting fight after another. And, if Im honest with everyone, I thought there was going to be more scenes like the cave. Hallows and Elder wand lore was so out of left feild that I was confused. When we go from thoughts of Inferi and dark mysterious horcrux locations, not to mention the amazing magical world Jo introduced us to, I can only speak for myself when I tell you, the woods....the forest and camping with little action but duffing around, starving, fighting, and reading a childrens book from Dumbledore...well, at the time, I was preturbed and confused.

But in the end the story became about Dumbledore and Snape how, even they, made huge mistakes! That they were vulnerable to boyhood pride and had terrible secrets, that in the end, Harry ultimatly made right...for everyone. So the wood scenes were very important....it's about survival and small steps. Dumbledore said to Harry, "I was hoping Ms Granger would slow you down." and she did, for good reason!

Alot did happen while they camped, but I was dissapointed not to have Jo write the trio in the wonderful magical communities we grew to love. To end my dragged out thought, I was dissapointed that the camping scenes lasted so long, but nescasary for the story to have honesty and timing for Dumbledores plans to work. The camping scenes provided us with private intimate moments between the trio. The confussion of Harry and his half baked plans, Rons weakness to hunger and horcruxes but his vitality to the trio's happiness, and Hermiones brains and guts and love that got them through it all! If it wernt for her, they would have died aloooong time ago.

So, yes, I agree with your sentiment. The camping scenes were about taking that hard step into adulthood. From having a protected childhood, into adulthood and correcting a few other peoples adolesant mistakes along the way.

This is interesting, David. As I went to sign in after reading your post, the title you chose, "Carry on Camping", brought to mind the opening bars to Kansas' song "Carry on Wayward Son":



I kind of find that this dove-tails with my experience of reading the camping scenes in Deathly Hallows. In a way, it was to me a description of the group finding the true meaning of "home". Harry is in a search to find himself and who he really is, and sometimes that requires us to be stripped bare in order to take a long look at our naked emotions.

Ron and Hermione also find their true homes in each other - remember that Hermione's parents have been confuddled and sent to Australia for their own safety by Hermione herself, leaving Hermione without an anchor - she is really being tossed about as "a ship on the ocean", yet she continues to trust in Harry and in Dumbledore's directive . Ron leaves for the comforts of his childhood home, which he identifies as a place, and where his mother cares for his every need. He calls out to Hermione, and eventually realizes that where she is, is where his heart has found its true home.

I think that the camping represents our search for where we really belong, but that isn't always a specific place, but in a space in mind. Once we find ourselves, we are always "home", though while we are searching, much of the activity that gets us there seems aimless or pointless, until we realize that we've had it all along - much like a dog chasing its own tail.

I agree that (especially on the first read), the parts where they were on the run seemed to drag on for a long time, seemingly not making much progress. However, I think that Jo did this on purpose to help convey the experience of what Harry and co. were attempting to do. As Harry says several times, they have very little information to work with, and very few resources at their disposal to help them along the way. Yes, it's frustrating for the readers, but this frustration is merely echoing from that of characters in the novel (if that makes sense).

Harry and co. were putting everything they had into hunting down all the remaining Horcruxes, but rather than making proportional progress, half the time their efforts seemed fruitless to them (and understandably so), as if they were trying to ride a bike up a steep hill. If all of their efforts turned out the best way they could have ever hoped for, their journey would not be realistic; in fact, on several occassions, some of their progress does not seem realistic - there's only so much luck that Jo can pump into the plot.

I really like the comments made so far.

I think that life on the run, homelessness, is fundamentally a different tempo to the adventures told in the previous six books. In all the previous books, we have a rhythm set by the school calendar. In the wilderness, however, time is without meaning.

One thing that is obvious, as harrypottergeek2 suggests, is that the frustration and anxiety felt by readers at the lack of action and purpose is exactly what is mirrored in the characters. Harry's growing obsession and Ron's departure are far more believeable.

And then there is the reality of what the Trio is doing. Hollywood and pulp novels tend to show war in a romantic adventure style with no doubts and no setbacks. And yet anyone who has read real accounts of wartime the phrase "Hurry up and wait" is a constant refrain. And fighters experience weeks of utter boredom interrupted by minutes of sheer terror.

Indeed, I'd say the lack of action during the camping scenes makes us all anxious to make a choice between Hallows and Horcruxes. And which tempts us most? And that belies the truth of those camping scenes. They are packed with action, but the action is internal rather than external.

What's interesting is that we see this internal debate in real politics today. There are those who'd like to unite those Hallows and solve conflict with conflict. While there are others who choose the slow, hard slog of finding Horcruxes and eliminating them one by one.

I really like harrypottergeek2's sentiments about how Rowling wrote the camping scenes deliberately and that the reader is supposed to feel the frustration and angst of the trio. I can't imagine what they felt like day in day out, and the days and weeks dragged on for them, just like the journey of the book dragged on for a lot of readers, myself included. Personally, though, I wasn't bored at all and I feel that if Rowling had "rushed" everything, a lot of the depth of the story would have been lost. Rowling has a way of making her readers wait for the treasure and the excitement to come; just like the trio wanted the answers to the puzzle, so did the readers.
I do think that the camping scenes really are times of solitude and meditation, not only for the trio and what they go through, but as a reader I felt the same way. I found myself really delving into the characters and what each and every one of them must have felt like. There were moments of solitude for each of the trio, very palpable and almost tangible at times. And the reader really felt the character's inner struggles. Harry's frustration was evident when he had so little to guide him; and Ron and Hermione were frustrated because Harry didn't really have a plan of action. DH was really the first book where we see the trio most united, and at the same time the most isolated, not only from the wizarding world, but from each other. They really were on their own and they really only had each other to rely on.

I do feel that DH particularly showed the loss of innocence of the trio; and the gaining of adulthood and wisdom; and facing not only the their external fears and what they had to accomplish in order to defeat Voldemort, but their innermost struggles and fears as well, which were just as difficult to face, and maybe even more so. Harry struggled with the fact that suddenly he was the leader; he was the one leading the trio. Hermione and Ron looked to him for each and every step they had to take in destroying the Horcruxes. Harry had to decide whether to pursue the Hallows or the Horcruxes. Ron, who was the most immature of the trio, had to face his innermost demons of jealousy, loneliness, the comforts of home and Hogwarts, and his love for Hermione. Hermione had to come to the realization that in order to live life one cannot learn everything from books and that hard earned experience, brings even more knowledge.

So the web spun and brought forth by Rowling's imagination and quill, made this particular book one of my favorites

I believe the "Camping" begins at The Burrow. And through the bedlam ensuing with the fall of the Ministry and the arrival of the Death Eaters, of the trio it is Hermione who takes the lead. She is well prepared -- in a surprisingly complete, and effective way.

She side-along aparates with Ron and Harry (did she grab Ron first?) to a place of her choosing. (Don't you feel like she took us with her, blindly?)

In getting rid of the Death Eater on the doorstep of 12 Grimmauld, she re-side-along aperated to the "wilderness" (if you will). And guess what? She's packed a tent -- along with a library, a gallery, and who knows what else (except food - didn't have time, no Mannah, & expected to get back to headquarters and to Kreacher's delicious cooking). Had 12 Grimmauld been available, would there have even been any camping?

But I think the journeys, as well prepared as the trio were, were a combination of survival without sufficient long term provisions, through exhaustion, hunger, affected by the Horcrux, disillusioned (deluminated), and constantly in harm's way.

I wonder if the pitching of tents rings with any Biblical allusion. And yes, there was growth -- individually, and as a whole.

Honestly, for me, the "camping" was a cohesive factor which did not detract from the effectiveness of the overall story line. Rather, it added some very real plot to the 7th book; and it helped us to revisit much of the entire HP Series. In some ways, I was sorry to see the camping experience end so abruptly after the Break-out (break-in) from Gringotts! It really is a different way of life.

davidenglish - you wanted the opinion of someone who didn't like 'the camping section' on this thread, and here I am!

Much as I love Harry Potter, I think 'the camping section', about 220 pages, were the poorest in the entire Series. Even the parts that weren't specifically about camping got lost in a feeling of helplessness, inertia and foolishness. Maybe JKR wanted us to understand the desperation and frustration the Trio were feeling, but an author should convey their characters feelings with their words, not by making the readers actually feel desperate and frustrated. I want to be able to understand the Trio's' boredom, without getting bored myself.

While the change in pace illustrated that this book/their experience in it, was so different to what had gone before, I couldn't shake off the feeling that I was missing the real story - at Hogwarts. Kerri pointed out rightly that a war was going on - but we didn't see any of it! Also, by having so little happen over such a long period of time, it was impossible to stay focused on the story (which had never happened to me before) and I started to notice other problems. I looked at the way the characters were behaving, and had zero sympathy. As they sat about arguing, I just thought "Call Dobby".

Hermione, so brilliant in most other areas, didn't think of the House Elves? S.P.E.W. be damned, they were trying to save the world - would she let her boys starve on principle? Of course not. I couldn't accept her plot driven foolishness in this respect. In fact, why didn't they call Kreacher first thing, to confirm that the Death Eaters had got into Grimauld Place, then arrange to call him on a weekly basis? Harry actually thought of him at the time, but didn't think to summon him? Nobody at Hogwarts paid a blind bit of notice to House Elves, he could easily bring them food/supplies.

Ron, desperate for food, forgot about Kreacher and the Steak and Kidney pie that he'd been looking forward to? Harry, having benefited from Dobby's help so many times, forgot about him now? For ages they starved and moped, when they had an untraceable source of magic on tap. If he'd helped them throughout the story, the camping scenes could be cut down to one month (and 80 pages) tops. Plus his death would be of more resonance. (People who only watch the films are going to think "Who's this?")

I refuse to believe the Horcrux was at fault. (And I wasn't convinced why they wore it next to their body, instead of in a box lined with the magical equivalent to lead, in Hermione's beaded bag) It might make them depressed/jealous etc, but stupid? Anyway, if they'd called Kreacher when they were first stranded, they wouldn't have had time to be affected.

It's difficult for anyone in the fantasy genre to follow Tolkien, and authors shouldn't totally avoid things just because they've already been done. However, imho, the whole sub plot of being affected by the one locket, wasn't strong enough to risk the clear comparison.

Whilst I loved Ron saving Harry and killing the Horcrux, I wish his fears had been about Harry and/or Hermione not thinking he was not as good as them, or not valuing his opinion. Maybe worried that he had nothing to contribute or that Hermione preferred Krum. But the whole Harry/Hermione liking each other was old by Book 5, and after years of Cho, Ginny and Krum, seemed nonsensical.

Sadly I feel that 1) JKR ignored the House Elves in order to have this long camping session, when it'd have been better to use them to avoid it. 2) That she wanted the book to last the same amount of time as a school year, so added many unproductive months which was hardly necessary if she really wanted this year to be different.

I'd have overlooked these things if I'd been carried along on a roller coaster of emotion, and felt their pain, but I can't agree that this was anything but dull, or that the dullness served a purpose. It just gave people a chance to find things to criticize. The camping session wasn't essential to the plot, it certainly didn't flow organically, but was inserted to fulfil certain requirements. I know it seems harsh, but Azkaban was the best plotted book, with about 300 pages - large numbers of pages are irrelevant if nothing happens in them.

The Trio could have gone to Godric's Hallow within a week of the wedding. Luna could be taken off the Hogwarts train on the 1st September. The Trio could go to her Fathers within a week of that (and The Hallows be introduced to the story earlier). Their regular House-Elf delivery could come with regular snippets of information - Potterwatch, Ted Tonks on the run, attempted theft of the Sword of Gryffindor, plus continuous information of the far more interesting guerilla war at Hogwarts. This would be far better than the mind boggling co-incidence of happening to come across Ted Tonks etc when they've the whole of GB to hide in. The argument about Dumbledore's culpability could have been cut down/completed at Aberforth's. The Trio could row during their month camping (why did Harry never ask Dumbledore more about Horcruxes?) and not be speaking, but as they're not wearing the locket, Ron doesn't walk out. Then when Harry follows the Doe, Ron wakes up to go to the loo, sees and follows him, then saves him from drowning. That'd cut almost 150 pages. The final battle could easily take place on All Hallow's Eve.

That's all just off the top of my head, JKR could easily make it run smoothly. The pace could have been breathtaking, with certain events (Most of the Wedding/Potters' Grave/Dobby's death/brief camping scenes) for respite. I just feel the camping didn't slow the book down, it bought it to a stop. I know it alienated some readers which is a shame.

This is something that made that part so real for me! In many warlike situations, we are given only snippets of what is going on in the "greater" world outside of our day to day living, through television "highlights", radio sound bytes, and newspaper articles. I vaguely remember as a kid watching the conflict in Vietnam on the evening news with my father - and that was said to be the first "televised" war. Before then, visual information to Home from the Front Lines was limited to newsreels and magazine articles and the occassional letter from a loved one serving in the armed forces, which was subject to editing so as to not compromise military movement and locations should those letters reach the "wrong" hands.

Remember also, chronologically speaking in relation to the "real" time when the events in DH were taking place, the Internet wasn't as accessible to nearly everyone as it is today. We have gotten used to Google and instant news in a relatively short span of time (DH took place in 1997, right?). That JKR was able to draw back into a "simpler" time, to give us such a feeling of being removed from the rest of the world was quite an achievement. I remember vacations camping as a kid with my parents, when to get news from home, we would have to find a payphone - and that wasn't always an easy thing to do! lol We're planning to take a camping trip next year with our kids, but will probably be within reach as long as a cell tower is within range. Times sure have changed!



To me, that they didn't simply call Dobby showed that they didn't feel they had a "safety net" to fall back on. Arguing together without someone else to mediate or get them out of a tough spot forced them to make more adult decisions and learn patience with each other. When it becomes apparant that they need outside intervention in their desperate situation at Malfoy Manor, Dobby comes through - but if I remember correctly, wasn't it Harry thinking he saw Dumbledore's eye and it was Aberforth who ended up sending Dobby? To Harry, Dumbledore was a source of wisdom, and it was this wisdom he turned to for help - which brought forth Dobby and the means to their escape. It isn't a wise thing to simply look for someone else to solve your problems, but if a problem is solved through your exercise of wisdom, it becomes easier to draw upon it when it is needed most.

This reminded me a little of a joke which my husband told me a while back:

QUOTE

A woman finds herself in dire trouble. Her business has gone bust and she's in serious financial trouble. She's so desperate that she decides to ask God for help. She begins to pray...
"God, please help me. I've lost my business and if I don't get some money, I'm going to lose my house as well. Please let me win the lotto."
Lotto night comes and somebody else wins it. She again prays ..."God, please let me win the lotto! I've lost my business, my house and I'm going to lose my car as well." Lotto night comes and she still has no luck.
Once again, she prays..."My God, why have you forsaken me?? I've lost my business, my house, and my car. My children are starving. I don't often ask you for help and I have always been a good servant to you. PLEASE just let me win the lotto this one time so I can get my life back in order."
Suddenly there is a blinding flash of light as the heavens open and she is confronted by the voice of God Himself: "Meet Me halfway on this. Buy a ticket."

I agree with your sentiments as to why the trio didn't call Dobby or Kreacher to help them earlier on in their quest during those camping scenes. I personally don't think Kreacher could have really helped, save for making Ron feel more comfortable palate wise And by calling on their help, they might have done more harm than good initially. I don't think Hermione was acting out of character by not thinking of the house elves; quite the opposite actually.

The camping scenes were times of reflection, which for some if not many readers found it quite "boring" when Rowling's other books were chalk full of excitement; however; I don't feel DH lacked anything that the other books had. DH was a book that illustrated the coming of age of the trio, and of other characters too, such as Neville. And I believe by centering on them and not everyone else, including the goings on at Hogwarts, she really laid out the plot beautifully. We learned enough from Neville when he came out of Araiana's portrait. I wouldn't have wanted to read chapter upon chapter of the Carrows wrecking havoc on Hogwarts, nor the way they exacted punishment on the students, nor their abuse, since really this wasn't the prime focus of the story. The moment Harry decided to leave Hogwarts, I knew that Hogwarts wasn't going to be the center of the story anymore, the scenes at Hogwarts were described at the very right moments in the story.

By taking us through the camping scenes, I believe Rowling herself was taking Dumbledore's wisdom to heart by demonstrating that life can be difficult, and the wisdom that is attained with coming into adulthood isn't simply handed to us on a silver platter. "Do what is right and not what is easy" is almost like a silent mantra living and breathing within the pages and that the decisions the trio made shouldn't always focus on those things that are easy; but those that are right. So in their quest for the Horcruxes, the trio gained much more knowledge and experience, the hard way

momwitch and lirene - apologies, I haven't mastered quoting from other posts yet, so I'll just address you generally if that's ok. Thanks for answering my post. I'm a real anti camping-section type!

I still don't understand why regular visits from the House Elves could have been anything but positive. I also refute that Ron was the only one who was hungry. All three were hungry. Food = fuel, something which can't be dismissed. It's essential not just to life, but to optimum mental ability. Supplying that would alone have made the House Elves contribution invaluable. Certainly, sometimes hunger and discomfort are features of conflict, but anyone would go to great lengths to avoid them, and the accompanying weaknesses if possible. Maybe the hunger is why they stopped being proactive. It's hard to feel compassion for their life being difficult. It wasn't inevitable and it didn't help their quest at all - it took months longer than it should have.

Months in which Voldemort was tightening his grip on the Wizarding World, while they sat about aimlessly. Did the Ministry stop persecuting the Muggle-borns after they stole the locket? No. People were suffering and three teenagers embark on a pointless voyage of self-discovery? I can't believe that JKR wanted them to seem so silly.

'Safety net' is just another phrase for support. Dumbledore himself always used any support anyway he could. He may have kept information to himself (far too much), but he still used everyone around him to further his own plans. So why should three inexperienced teenagers not do so? It was war! Especially when House Elves don't ask questions. They wouldn't have been solving Harry's problems for him - he'd have been using them to solve them himself, just as Dumbledore always did. That's the mark of a leader - to delegate, and make all possible use of resources. Dumbledore would never have sat about like that. He was always planning, thinking, even manipulating. Not getting tetchy with Snape and McGonagall.

The House Elves would also have brought regular information from the outside world. Mostly from Hogwarts, but even from the Weasleys. We had too little info, reminding us that all the story was happening elsewhere. That may be true to life, but imho, it's not interesting to read about. JKR had spent the previous 5 books establishing a powerful source of magic that could have been used to enrich and expand the story. The Elves could have done all sorts of things, and no-one would have said 'Deus Ex-Machina', because they were so much a part of the Harry Potter world.

While I understand how their months alone dealing with their 'issues' could be character building, they had a job to do. It wasn't the time for navel gazing, and discovering themselves. Their learning to deal with things and each other in a mature way wasn't the task Dumbledore left them. Surely they could have learnt the same things whilst using initiative and trying to move their task on, not waiting and hoping that the next part of the story would co-incidentally happen to camp next to them.

The fact is the real character building was going on at Hogwarts. Neville was leading the DA in standing up to Death Eaters - every day. Almost unbelievable character growth, but I don't mind, I liked it. Ginny, Luna and the rest of Dumbledores Army were really learning how to exist when all the cards were against them (though they should have got food into the Room of Requirement from Dobby as well!) They had each other, and instead of bickering, they lived in the lion's den, in actual danger. In the end, they rightly came out covered in glory.

The Trio were in hiding, and day to day were in nowhere near as much danger. That only came sporadically when they walked into it (The Minstry) or blundered into it (Godric's Hallow). Months of this solitary development ended with Harry still reckless and immature enough to say 'Voldemort' without thinking, when one friend had warned him not to, and leading to the other almost being tortured to death. What did we learn about him then?

Sorry, I know how stubborn I am, but I'm convinced that those slow 200+ pages forced the action at the end to be too rushed and spoilt the pace!

These Camping Scenes are structured differently, from a literary viewpoint, than the Action Scenes (or news clippings, letters, or radio announcements). The prose in JK Rowling's Camping scenes offers a very different, and a very difficult test to the reader's ability to recognize the changes experienced by our heros.

I personaly have never been troubled to carry around a Horcrux. But just add it to the sheer battering of natural elements from without; and being eaten up by the brutal ravages of hunger, despair, and indecision. How difficult must it now be for the trio to grow in wisdom, or to seek it out?

It was not until he and Ron were trapped in the Malfoy dungeon/cellar that Harry, upon gazing into the blue eye in the shard of Sirius' mirror, "asked" for help. Dobby was "sent" -- As a free elf. He chose to return to Malfoy Manor.

Maybe Harry could have ordered Kreacher to join them at any point. At last thought, 12 Grimmauld was not a safe place even for him. Kreacher was still Harry's house-elf, wasn't he? I cannot imagine that Harry didn't think of ordering him to come. Rather, I believe the nature of this war on the trio -- and on many, many others (humans, elves, goblins, etc.) became an endeavour of choice. A choice to join, or not to. A choice to act in one battle over another. A choice to abandon those one cares about; or not to do so. The elves did not play into command at this point, imo.

Finally, I wonder at the point where bravery and courage are best employed by seeking wisdom. Wisdom is more than information. To my way of thinking, wisdom is truly that action to find someone else to solve a problem. Please don't misinterpret this to mean that the other person is the solver of the problem. Rather, seeking guidance, aid, a different perspective -- all of these may offer options for an individual to choose the right path, the right path for the individual to follow. Is this not a sign of control; a sign of independence?

Firstly, I don't think the trio could call Dobby. Harry can summon Kreacher but I think that is only because he is his master. That is why Dobby is summoned by means of the mirrors and to a specific location.
Harry could summon Kreacher but it was too big a risk, because the trio had no way of knowing if Kreacher had been captured and bewitched in some manner to give away their location. For example Kreacher might be imperiused to say the V-word if he was ever summoned by Harry, which would allow the death eaters to find him.
What were three teenagers supposed to do about what is going on in the Wizarding World? And if they try to do something they risk jeopardizing their mission because, apart from the risk of being captured or killed, if Voldemort discovers they are after Horcruxes, then he can make them impossible to find and destroy rather than it merely being extremely difficult. The trio have to play the long game, focussing on destroying the horcruxes even if it takes many years, rather than trying to achieve a short term reduction in suffering at the possible cost of making Voldemort unbeatable.

Not a problem at all SarahW . I find it a very good thing to hash out all of these ideas - if you've taken a look at some other, more dated threads around Obscurus, you'll find that there have been multiple "editions" of threads when the discussions got too large for one thread to hold! lol

Before I respond somewhat to your post, to quote specific items within another post you have two "built in" options. Underneath each post, you will see at the lower right two tabs: +Quote and "Quote". +Quote will allow you to grab small portions from multiple posters, while "Quote" will copy the entire post and wrap it in quote tags. It is a little tricky, but with some practice, you can be a pro!

bold mine

I can think of a few ways in where having the house elves show up could be a very negative thing, for both the Trio and the House Elves. If an elf was captured, or pressed into involuntary servitude, the elf could be tortured into revealing where Harry was, or working against the Trio as a spy.

Dobby seemed rather unique among house elves, in that he was willing to suffer the punishment that breaking his service "contract" to the Malfoys would earn him (ironing his hands, hitting himself against a wall, etc), but like people, not every elf would be willing to put themselves out there at their own risk, to protect someone else. If Dobby or Kreacher was found out to be working with Harry in his exile, on a continual basis to provide the "creature comforts" which Harry & Co were used to having, it could be disasterous for everyone involved. Voldemort would have gotten Harry before Harry was "ready" (finding out where he came from was a big step in finding out who he was), and reforming the three as a Trio, once Ron grew up a bit and got his priorities back in order.

I don't think we can place a time frame on "readiness" - "we will sell no wine before its time" is an old advertising slogan that seems to fit very well here! lol But, determining when each young wine has reached "its time" is a truly individualized thing. Some vintages take longer than others depending on the quality of the grapes, the environmental conditions at the time of harvest, the wood and craftsmanship of the barrels...the list can go on and on. A good vintner knows that patience is required, and to get a truly superior wine, sacrifices must be made to ensure that it can reach its full potential. The same holds true for the maturation process of people too - rush it or get overly anxious in testing your "product", and you might end up with a very costly vinegar.

SarahW, I appreciate your objections to the camping scenes. And it's good to hear from someone who can put the case so articulately. However, I must agree with Roonwit's comments. Dobby is a free elf. Harry cannot summon him. In HBP, Dobby came when Harry summoned Kreacher because the two house elves were wrestling.

As for Kreacher, Hermione and Harry are certain that Yaxley has made it into 12GP. Kreacher has been captured. If there's an enchantment on the name 'Voldemort', why not place one on the name 'Kreacher'? Harry, of course, is not fully confident of Kreacher's loyalty and also worries that the house elf might be tortured.

And that final thought also invalidates calling the house elves. It's not their war. Why treat them as expendable cannon fodder? Indeed, when Harry calls for help to the blue eye in the broken mirror, that's all he does do. "We're in the cellar of Malfoy Manor, help us." He doesn't name Dobby. And Dobby is obviously terrified when he does arrive. And with good reason.

I'm sure many people wished they knew what was happening at Hogwarts or the Ministry or the Wizarding World in general. But that's not true to war. (Curiously, half of LOTR is nothing but a camping trip, but I rarely hear fans complain about it.) And the isolation of the Trio presents us with the inversion of life of Hogwarts: There's no comforts and no routine, just hunger, thirst and despair.

Actually, I can believe that JKR wanted them to seem so silly. That's what life is all about. The camping trip captures the very lessons JKR talked about in her Harvard address. The Trio fail. And they learn from their failure. And they learn to imagine what it must be like to be other people and have feelings quite different from their own.

And like a soldier in any war, they have their mission. And they are not omnipotent. They don't wear scarlet capes or answer the bat phone or whatever. And when Harry is on the point of uniting the three hallows, he doesn't become some awesome, all-powerful master of death and life. No, he just becomes aware of the fragility of life and the terrible temptations presented by the fear of death.Well, I don't think so. What you're asking is not to delegate responsibility but to pass the buck of risk. Should Harry let the house elves die simply because they must obey? Would Dumbledore have done that? Not a chance. Indeed, the one leader we do see doing this is Voldemort. He's the one who considers Kreacher expendable, he murders Snape to test a theory, and he considers all his manipulations to be in service of the greater good of a pure blood world.
Well, isn't your reasoning the same as Ron's? He wanted a plan of action, to do something. And he finally couldn't take the aimlessness any more. But, as I've said, real war is weeks of boredom interrupted by a few minutes of abject terror. Actually, the camping reminded me of the aftermath of 9/11. People were angry and frighened and bewildered. But anyone trying to discuss root causes or historical facts were shouted down. Action was called for, whether it was the right action or not. This was Harry's problem in OotP. He begins to learn the importance of understanding root causes and history in HBP. And DH requires that he interpret cause & effect through the prism of a worldview. That's why the wandering in the wilderness is so important to Harry's spiritual awakening.

If all we saw were a Boy's or Girl's Own Adventure starring Neville, Ginny and the DA, I'm sure it would be very exciting. But then it wouldn't be Harry Potter, would it? It would be Star Wars. And Dumbledore's message would be jumbled up with the Ministry's thinking of Fudge and Scrimgeour.

And I don't think the phantom Harry & Hermione of the Locket is old hat. Why else the riot among shippers after the LeakyMug interview with JKR after HBP? And Ron's fear has more to do with a projection of his own betrayal. Ron's had the most difficult growth in the series as he has to fight his conventional thinking with regard to family, friendship and love.

And, of course, that's what the HP saga has really been about, isn't it? Family, friendship and love? And the camping tests all three. And it's no coincident that the Trio are each tempted by a different Hallow or that during the camping Harry reads a tale of Dumbledore's own isolation and frustration dealing with family, friendship and love.

Disclaimer: I've been to the dentist today, so I'm not in the greatest of moods, and the pain meds aren't the best for thinking. Sorry if I'm a little more intense than warranted.




Harry NEVER willingly called people he cared about into dangerous situations. He didn't want to take anyone to the Ministry with him to rescue Sirius, and if he could have talked Ron and Hermione out of going Horcrux hunting with him, he would have. Throughout the series, he has an intense fear of losing someone else that he loves, and it only gets worse after Cedric's death. So why on earth would he even think of asking Kreacher or Dobby to come to him while he was the most wanted man in the Wizarding World? True, they were in the middle of the wilderness, but they could never be certain that they wouldn't be detected, and the risk was always there. He wouldn't want to put more of his loved ones in danger if he could see any way of preventing it, and so Kreacher bided his time with the Death Eaters at Grimmuald Place and Dobby stayed at Hogwarts until he really was needed.


Why do you say that? How was the effort to track down and destroy the Horcruxes supposed to be faster than it was? Harry and Hermione only had a limited amount of information on what objects they were looking for and where they might be found, and they weren't exactly planning on being caught during their infiltration of the Ministry. Would storing the locket have been easier if Harry & Co. were still staying at 12 Grimmuald Place? Probably. But how would they have tracked down the cup and the diadem? It wasn't until Bellatrix freaked out about the Sword and whether or not Hermione had been inside her Gringott's vault that they even considered the possibility that there could be a Horcrux there. How else would they have gotten that information? What should they have done differently (apart from calling the House Elves, which Harry and Hermione would never have done)?


What should they have done? They were hopelessly outnumbered by wizards who were not only willing but eager to use unforgivable curses. By fleeing the Ministry, they did the only thing they could reasonably have done. If they had stayed to fight injustice at the Ministry, who would be thinking about where the Horcruxes were? They were the only ones who knew about the Horcruxes, and they had to stay alive and uncaptured in order to destroy them. That had to be the priority. I'm sure they all wished they could be out in the open fighting Death Eaters, but in war there have to be people who stay out of the immediate conflicts in order to see to the bigger picture. Harry, Ron and Hermione were seeing to the bigger picture. They weren't particularly thrilled about it, but there wasn't anyone else to do the job, so they stuck to it.

I suppose I'm in the "feeling Harry's frustration" camp (no pun intended ). There have been many times over the course of the series when I felt that Jo was taking advantage of circumstances to make sure her audience shared her characters' feelings. Most notably, I think, was the opening chapter of OOTP. Here we were, having waited three years, knowng Voldemort had returned, desperate to find out what was happening in the Wizarding World. And where was Harry? Isolated, alone, and desperate to find out what was happening in the Wizarding World. Presto. Instant empathy. I felt the same way about the camping trip. Harry, Ron and Hermione were alone, isolated, frustrated, and had no idea how to go on with their mission. And I felt exactly the same. I thought it worked.

In some ways, I can see a distinct resemblance between the Camping Scenes in DH and those in Lord of the Rings. However, the expedition in LotR changes dramatically as the Fellowship is broken and splintered. There were certain "safe" camps, such as in Rivendale, Lothlorien, Fangorn (for Merry and Pippin, at least), in Medutheld (at Edoras in Rohan), and (after the Battle of Pellenore Fields) in Gondor (Houses of Healing).

Yet none of these experiences compare with the endless drudgery, and treachery, of Gollum's guidance to the Black Gate; and then to Shelob's lair. The fumes and ash, molten lava, thirst, delirium . . . and did I mention treachery?

Many scholarly commentators woefully moun the agonizing trek of Frodo and Sam, once they split from the rest of the Fellowship. Does anyone know of them? Faramir and his captains come way too close to knowing the real treachery -- that of the Ring.

Oh but couldn't Tolkien have just shaved a few hundred pages of Frodo's journey with the ring? Many have said yes (for what it's worth).

ELC

The trio were on the run, so camping was really their only option. Harry was "Undesirable No 1" so he couldn't rock up to the nearest motel and get a room for the night. The fact that the search for the information that they required took so long, gave them no choice but to go the ground and make themselves off the radar. By camping they could move on with their quest and leave no trace of their previous stay. I am sure that some of us who have been camping have experienced that time where everyone is getting on everyone else's nerves and people say and do things that they do not mean. This gave JKR the opportunity to split the trio, a move that gave us a diversion from all that camping.

Good thing Hermoine packs a good bag. I could use her on my next holiday.

If that happened, there wouldn't have been all that much to The Two Towers! True, it was a bridge book where new characters are introduced, and most of the existing characters are moved into their new positions to make the later action plausible, but I know a number of people who rate The Two Towers as their favorite book in the Series.

Though Return of the King is probably my choice for best LOTR book, TT provides a continuity and sets up the conditions for the later conflict Frodo faces when finally reaching his destination. He shifts from being an optimistic and innocent idealist to someone who is permanently changed from the literal weight of the world dangling from his neck. In my opinion, without being witness to this transformation it makes it very hard to understand Frodo's frame of mind in not being able to destroy the Ring when the time comes. It makes me wonder if those people who feel that pages from Frodo's journey should have been shaved, are the same ones who don't see why Frodo would have such difficulty at Mt. Doom, and why he just didn't throw the Ring into the flames without a second thought.

I see Harry's camping trip similarly transformative...yet in a re-read, we could always skip those chapters and get to the action packed scenes. Reader's Digest has been doing the same thing for years with their Condensed Books collections! lol

But no, Momwitch! Please don't skip this journey - more real, more painfully, bitterly, remarkably real. This is not a pensieve "out of body" experience. Nor is Harry's "mind-meld" epsodes with Voldemort more enduring than "Mushroom Soup!" The bitter cold. The rain. The snow. The doe. The cloaked forays into farms and villages, Godric's Hollow . . . not to mention that Hermione has a whole library, the trio can aggravate Professor Nigellus Black . . . and they've got a job to do (hunt down Horcruxes? Survive? Maybe look for the Hallows?? (no.)).

I have to admit that I rarely re-read any book of the Series from beginning to end. I usually concentrate on just one chapter (although usually from 3 or 4 separate books) at a time.

Thanks for the advice on quoting, momwitch. My display driver (whatever that is) is slowly dying, so my p.c. keeps freezing and I lose everything I type. I have to type and save in word, then quickly paste and submit, so I can't quote at the moment. I have to either download a new one (yawn) or send my pc in to be fixed (no!) But I'll practice, honest!

I've replied to everyone generally again, sorry I know it's more difficult to read, so thanks for taking the time to post.

I agree that real war is months of boredom, then bursts of activity, you reach a stalemate, then someone comes up with a new plan. Then you sit about while someone else is active, then you're called into action etc. The First World War in particular involved years of sitting about in mud filled, rat-infested trenches, yet neither My Boy Jack, nor any other film will bore you with inactivity for half the length of the film. No, within a few minutes of the last big event, they'll cut to a scene of the actors looking bedraggled and dirty, and some NCO will be saying "We've been here for 6 months and nothing's happened - the men can't put up with much more of this, Sir!" We know time has passed, and they're fed up, without getting fed up ourselves.

This is one instance where 'show, don't tell' was lethal. She showed us the nothing the Trio was doing, and (occasionally) told us of the far more interesting things happening to everyone else. Dull story telling. When Ron left, I so wanted to go with him. I'm not saying they should have done lots of new things and attacked the DEs at all. But they could have done the same things with one month, not 6. They could and should have gone to Godric's Hollow within a week of starting to camp. The Lovegoods within 3 weeks of that. They could have found out everything they needed to know at a better pace, it only took so long because JKR wrote it that way for the book to last the length of a school year and I don't think it was necessary. Eg They didn't need to wait ages for hair to Polyjuice themselves before meeting the snake. Why didn't they just glamour themselves? Then they could go immediately. Surely Polyjuice should only be used if you need to look like someone in particular? If you just need to change your own appearance glamours are surely more efficient?

Kreacher's loyalties/possible fates are like everything else in this book - dependent on what JKR decides. We could go back and forth (and I don't mind!) with arguments on various outcomes, but my point is that JKR could have written it using the House Elves more efficiently, thus making the story more engrossing . If she decided something - it would happen!

We know for a fact that Kreacher got away, and fought at the Battle of Hogwarts, so JKR definitely decided that he should not get caught at Grimauld Place, but spend the story loyal to Harry. In which case, why not have him help Harry instead of be at Hogwarts? If Hermione apparated a Death Eater to the door step, you'd think that Harry would want to ensure that Kreacher was ok. He actually thought about him at that time - he imagined him working on the steak and kidney pie. Very concerned! So it was made clear that Harry never considered him a security risk.

Instead, he could have called him on the spot while Hermione was tending to Ron, even just to check on him (as he's supposed to be a caring sort of slave owner). Nobody would have had a chance to capture him, and Harry would be rescuing him from a dangerous situation. Or perhaps freeing those muggle-borns earlier met his heroic quota for the day?

Kreacher would never be involved in actively striking out against Voldemort's regime - why should he be, the Trio weren't. Simply supplying food and news, and he'd have been happy to do it. Alternatively, Harry could tell him to get to Hogwarts safely and send Dobby. I'm sure Dobby would be willing, and JKR could say that he could easily hear Harry's calls and choose to answer him. As Dobby wasn't owned, he'd have the free will to choose to help them. Maybe they could alternate to lessen suspicion. And Dobby was called to Malfoy Manor because he knew it so well……

Dobby's unease at Malfoy Manor is not surprising, but Harry wouldn't casually call him there - it was a matter of life or death. If Dobby had voluntarily helped them previously, his death would seem the result of a conscious, freely made decision, fitting for a free being. It could have had real resonance - that being free to choose how to lead your life, also meant being able to die for what you believed. Better than being sent to your death by Aberforth, like any owned House Elf…..

I can't accept any argument about it being too risky to summon Kreacher after the Ministry. Harry said Voldemort's name (and got Hermione tortured, leading to Dobby's death) AFTER this wisdom developing 200+ pages. So why not spontaneously call Kreacher before the tent was out of the bag? It'd be out of concern for his welfare, just after the raid when he's all flustered. Totally in character - reckless, but with far better results.

I don't mind them failing and being silly, then learning from it - but I want to feel involved in those lessons, not bored by them. Harry breaking the Taboo, is not only proof he learnt nothing much, but was also a big mistake. I rolled my eyes, but the outcome was a much better read. Even worse was their behaviour at Godric's Hollow - a witch that can see under the invisibility cloak? I'm not saying they should immediately deduce she's a snake with special powers, but they weren't suspicious enough of this 'never seen before' Dumbledorish ability for my liking. OK, Hermione had some doubt, but they go with her anyway. 'Come' she say's, or rather hisses in Parseltongue - being a SNAKE. Hermione does hear her - she jumps - but doesn't run away screaming. The Hell?

Harry is convinced that she's waiting to talk to Harry Potter - a 17 year old school boy - then takes off the invisibility cloak thinking she'd only see the muggle he was polyjuiced as. So why would Bathilda talk to him then? How does she know it's him? Unless he SMELT right. Ho! What is he thinking? The point to all this is, though I was screaming at them for being so gullible at this stage in the game, it was worth it as the only interesting part of that section. Afterwards they're all regretful of their mistakes, acknowledging they were wrong, and definitely learning, but I wasn't bored once. {And I got to read about a snake bursting out of an old woman's neck!}

The Harry/Hermione thing was total old hat after Goblet, because we're talking about what Ron thought, not what those scary people who ship real people thought! I'm not a shipper, but heavens! Some people looked at Daniel and Emma's chemistry and the way the films were made, and that really helped fuel H/Hr. However it was nonsense for Ron to suddenly start being suspicious of Harry/Hermione in DH, because in the books those two were so blatantly interested in others, or he thought they were in the case of Krum, and that drove the story in Books 4 (second half), 5, and 6 . I can't think of anything to indicate Harry and Hermione ever actually being interested in each other, in the books, just unimaginative press (Rita Skeeter) and other pupils (Romilda etc) who presumed she'd go for the hero, because obviously girls are just that shallow!

Ron had the sort of nature that was simply more vulnerable to the Horcrux, just as he was more vulnerable to the Imperius Curse in Goblet. He might have stomped off, but within minutes of taking off the locket, he regretted his actions. I don't think its fair to say he needed to rethink his priorities - it wasn't a hissy fit. Sorry, but I do get very touchy about Ron being dumbed down and treated like an idiot by Hollywood etc!

OT - Talking of Hollywood, I see Half Blood Prince isn't coming out until next July. While people who post/read about Potter on the internet are likely to go, no matter what, I fear the majority of more casual fans might well lose interest as we get further away from Book 7. Maybe I'll check out a more relevant thread…..

I'll hopefully be back after in a couple of days, but thanks for answering my post and not getting too cross with me! I do love Harry Potter, just not this section.

Now there's an argument; which I hope SarahW will return to. Books read differently. Authors are not beholden to standard rules. And JK Rowling did say that she was writing the Series for herself; and thus owes no one explanations.

That being said, I believe that I sense a great deal of fear in the lengthy interlude of the Camping Scenes. Fear is a form of discomfort. The more intense it becomes, the less desireable it is to remain with it; or with its source.

I don't believe that these scenes are the true source of this fear. Rather, the heavy messages (not inuendo) that the trio confront actually has a very significant impact on this reader (me). If a book gets too intense for me, I generally put it down.

But the discomfort from these scenes is intentional -- very clearly so. Rather than watch the trio develop and mature; I believe JK Rowling intends for the reader to go through this process. After all, discomfort (need) is the catalyst for change.

Now this is definitely a way I have never looked at these passages before, but it makes a lot of sense! Reading your post after SarahW said this:



reminded me so much of the slasher/horror movies that are so popular for the teenage set; (at least from my teenage years! lol) Friday the 13th, Nightmare on Elm Street, Halloween, and so many others.

Part of the fun was screaming at the screen yourself: "Don't go there!!" "Are you stupid or something - get out of there!" (and others using more expletive language!) when the characters were just walking towards their own deaths blindly. We could never seem to get enough of those films - maybe JKR was reliving some of her memorable teenage experiences by writing it this way? Not necessarily the movies themselves, but the fun of being out with your friends (I don't know anyone who went to those movies alone - it was usually packs of kids who filled the theaters), and feeling somewhat in charge and godlike in being able to predict the outcome before it happened. It was thrilling and exciting, and so much fun for the girls to "rank" on the "dumb bimbo" who couldn't fight her way out of a paper bag- and the guys to see the buff and self-absorbed "jock" fall just as hard!

Funny thing too, that at least one of these series was filmed at a deserted Summer Camp, closed for the season, where some tragic accident happened in the still remembered but distant past. Something about camping out of season is downright spooky! When the title for Deathly Hallows was revealed, I thought it had to have something to do with Halloween!

Are these camping interludes tedious because they seem to be cast "out of character"? "Know it All" Hermione and Harry Our Hero are playing the roles of "stupid and her more stupid boyfriend" - we can't have that!!! What was JKR thinking?. It all ends up turning out OK later on for Hermione and Harry (and Ron, too)...but in the slasher films, the "smart ones" always survived to face the "enemy" again - perhaps that is why 19 years later, Harry still "checks" his scar . That seems like a very wise thing to do...

I'm one who was a bit frustrated by the camping saga. It was just so... claustrophobic. Reminded me more of No Exit than of LOTR. For all of the reasons previously stated (much better than I could), it wouldn't fix everything to have the house-elves pop up periodically, nor would it even work from a logical standpoint. The way I see it, though, it's not actually the 'camping' that's the trouble.

I think the root problem is that DH is the last part of a 7-part series. How far can one segment stray from the others before the differences start to strain the continuity? Every installation of Harry Potter follows the same outline: one school-year long, starts in summer, moves to Hogwarts, drama on that journey, new DADA teacher, something new over Christmas, major climax right before end of school year, yada yada yada. Each book moves fairly smoothly through the seasons; concrete markers like Quidditch games and holidays act like measures, with Halloween, Christmas and Easter dividing each book reasonably evenly. Within this framework, the routine backdrop of classes and social drama act as filler between bits that advance The Main Plot (aka whatever Harry's dealing with that year). This rythm keeps the pace fast, fluid and well-timed, even though the Main Plot aspect of The Formula tends to look like this: beginning of the story=problem laid out/most of the book=information and skill gathering/ end of book= climactic resolution. Even as the books became much darker, more complicated, and more dramatic from SS to HBP they were united by this common backdrop. Only twice has Rowling ever really strained that plotting formula: the drawn-out Quidditch Cup saga, in which it takes 10 MILLION CHAPTERS to get to Hogwarts, and Deathly Hallows. The Quidditch Cup stuff was interesting and exciting, and once we get back to Hogwarts, normal plotting resumes.

Deathly Hallows completely departs from The Formula. It's too different from the bulk of the story. Sure, we knew that maybe Harry (and therefore, the reader) wasn't going back to Hogwarts-- although quite a few people thought he'd get back there anyways-- but every aspect that moved the other books along, from the daily grind of classes and detentions to the various high-school dramas (everybody thinks that Harry is the Heir of Slytherin! We have to ask girls to the Yule Ball! Ron is dating Lavender!) to the careful parceling-out of real drama, is missing. The story is pared down to three unhappy people in a tent, and it's so different than what we were lead to expect (based on six previous installments) that it's unsatisfying. We miss the routine, the expected.

Lord of the Rings is so different that it's not worth the comparison re: camping. First off, it's not a camping trip, it's a journey. Each time the characters set off, whether it's the hobbits leaving the Shire, the hobbits-plus-Strider from Bree, the Nine of the Fellowship from Rivendell, or Sam and Frodo from Ithilien, there was always a clear purpose and destination. Get to Bree. Get to Rivendell. Rescue the hobbits. Escape the Orc-captors. Get to Mordor. Destroy the Ring. There is very little time wasted, very little indecision. At no point does the company spend months on end doing nothing but bicker in their tent. "Camping" is a means to an end, the only way to travel in these Middle-Ages-esque times, but boy do they travel! Secondly, LOTR is its own entity. Excepting The Hobbit, it's not really following anything; there is no preconceived plan as there is with HP. As I mentioned above, the main discord re: "camping" in DH is that it departs from the rest of the series rather dramatically; LOTR doesn't have that discord. The camping in LOTR IS the story. Lastly, LOTR has its own plotting rythm that I think a previous poster mentioned, to which it does remain true: long hard trek followed by brief, rejuvenating respite. Mines of Moria followed by Lorien. Sam and Frodo's trek interrupted by Faramir, with warm food, wine, restocked supplies. Every book or series has its internal logic and plotting devices, that should they be disturbed, disturbs the reader as well. So to glibly say, "Readers don't seem to mind the camping in LOTR!" is to completely miss the point.

I think that would have had everyone complaining at how quick everything happened. Finding the horcruxes is a difficult task, and it is only realistic that Harry follows many false leads (he does do a lot of checking out places early in the trip), before latching onto useful ones.
He could have called Kreacher straight after apparating away from Grimmauld Place, but by the time he thinks of it it is too late, because the death eaters could have got to him - it wouldn't take long to get from the front door to the kitchen. As to supplying food and news, as soon as Kreacher leaves the trio he is at risk of capture (particularly since getting food and news would require contacts with others, or going to compromised places like Grimmauld Place for supplies) and therefore potentially revealing their position to their enemies, so they can't have him going back and forth, and he would have to stay with them.
But it is also proof that Harry is human. He has been saying Voldemort throughout the first 6 books, so it is highly likely he would slip back into his old habit of saying the V word at some point. It is that which makes the taboo so powerful for Voldemort, as people do make such slips. If anything what is unusual is that Harry didn't slip up before then.
What is not clear is whether Hermione identities the hissing as parseltongue. They should have been more suspicious, but they also needed to hunt for the sword that their current theory suggests might be hidden and Godric's Hollow, so they had to take some risks.
Is it really that different though? If you replace time spent in lessons in the first 6 books with time spent camping then there isn't that much difference, because there is a lot of going to lessons with the occasional interaction and clue but most of the time it is just the trio, and the camping trip isn't that different. It may seem like a long drawn out affair, but there is always stuff going on during the documented bits of the camping trip.

BTW, I find the objection that the Trio wouldn't be able to carry a whole movie of the first half of DH curious. Recall that the Trio are played by other actors through the power of Polyjuice Potion. Indeed, I suspect every big name British actor who has yet to land a part in HP has been lobbying for these choice cameos. It will not be Emma and Dan who visit Godric's Hollow, but a middle-aged couple. I'd suggest Helen Mirren and Bob Hoskins for the parts. Can't you see them in the graveyard. And then followed by the old lady. Mirren would look great inspecting the dusty living room and Hoskins would have his wide-eyed excited look as he went upstairs to find the 'sword'.

And I know many people who are bored with LOTR and its endless hiking. And I don't think they really do have any more of a goal than the Trio do. Remember Frodo spends ages saying goodbye to the Shire, then they wander east. When Gandalf falls, they really don't have any idea of what direction to go. And they debate it endlessly. And it's not one book but three; each divided into two halves.

Yes, it does seem like a tedious lesson at times. But I'm reminded of the lessons Wart has in TH White's The Sword in the Stone. (They're not as cute as the one's in Disney and the one where he learns to watch the forest breathe is poetic and deliberate.) It may seem arduous and dull, but it's odd that we live in a culture where so many want instant gratification and learning a skill is for nerds and geeks. And yet we know Dumbledore spent much of HBP finding the entrance to the cave. Sadly, we need to see that his discoveries were the result of frustrating trial and error.

Luckily, it's a book and one can skim the parts one doesn't want to read a second time. It's odd. I know many people who hate different parts of LOTR. I love Tom Bombadil, but I have a friend who has never read that passage since the first time. He hates it, finds it deadly dull. Oh, well. To each his own. And yet it enriches the overall saga.

yeah i am just gonna state my opinion of the camping. i think it is showing how they are cut off from the world. they dont know if their friends are dead or how powerful the DEs/voldemort are/is. they dont know who's dead, who's alive. all they know is the inside of the tent and eachother. they are also on a path (the horcrux hunt) that could lead one of two ways, either they will win and (most will) live, or well, they lose and harry and his allies die in the fight. plus they are also dealing with love. harry is in love with ginny, and that makes being away from hogwarts even worse. and hermione and ron are in love, so when ron leaves, hermione is forced to be without him for the first time. they are all learning to fight for themselves. they are learning that there wont always be a shelter to crawl under. they are also dealing with trust (and lack of) numerous times harry is mistrusting towards DD and is unsure of where the road will take them. harry is also having trouble trusting Ron and hermione, he is thinking that they are going to leave him. with that said, ron/hermione are also having trouble trusting him. i think that they learn in the camping scenes that you have to trust the people you love. they learn that they have to fall, and hope that their loved ones will be there to catch them. in short, i think the camping shows isolation and fear.

I found the whole camping part of DH quite..er..boring to be honest, it seemd to stretch on and on, without much happening, even though I know stuff was actually happening, I grew tired of it! But I understand why it had to be like that, you couldn't eexpect there to be action all the time, that wouldn't be 'realistic'.

like hufflemuffinx said it shows isolation and fear, to dominating emotions in a war.

I know I'm late to this discussion and this is a topic I have wanted to very much discourse, especially with you DE *heh*. So I hope this post doesn't get lost in the thread flow.

To me the Camping scenes were a staple of the Fantasy Genre, Lord of the Rings is FULL of camping for instance. Other stories may use the plot merely to show how naieve the heros are and how vulnarble and human as well. The Camping in HP was really miniscule when compared to some other fantasy Literature where it can be half the book of a few people making a LOOONG journey from point a to point b. To also put it simply most of the time the Hero, especialy our Trio in DH, have to stay away from others lest they draw unwanted attention on themselves.

Glancing through the thread I did pick up the thought here that the camping is to illustrate the Trio's weaknesses and internal obstacles they had to over come. So for me I enjoyed it for what it was, it was no where near as long as some camping journy's I have read. Frankly I thought Silver Doe was probably the best chapter of the entire series, and that was during the camping.

Heck even Dorthy of Oz was really just one long camping journy to get to Emeral City.

Maybe I'm biased since I love the outdoors and camping, the solidtude that comes with it all.

to me, the story would be unrealistic if we took out some of the camping. the camping shows how what they want wont come easy aka how life works. think about it, would the story be as emotional if there was only a chapter or two on camping?

oh and great siggy shard

Does Jo ever say that these scenes are meant to be "CAMPING" scenes? Had Hermione not brought the tent, would they still be camping? Also, what role do the enchantments play in the "camping experience?"

Shard, you are spot-on with Silver Doe (Our (new?) hero, Ron, is reunited with the rest of the trio; although isn't given a completely warm welcome -- Oouch!). I do believe, however, that in your reference to The Wizard of Oz, you do touch on an aspect of the thread that has not been well discussed. That being the oversight of a higher power(s). In the WofOz scene "Poppies" (a scene in which the heroic team of Dorothy (et Toto), Scarecrow, Tinman, and Lion are only a league or two from the Emerald City), we see how the Wicked Witch of the West (Death Eater type) tries to stymie the group with narcotics (opiates, e.g. heroine, morphine); and Glenda (the Good Witch of the North) kills the flowers with snow (euphemism for cocaine???). Thus, the "camping experience" in the WofOz is indeed "observed," if you will by those who (like Aberforth Dumbledore) have some ability to intervene.


(So now which house would you have put Glenda in? )

ELC

Actually, I don't consider it real camping, since it was a magic tent and all. It was more like living in a movable apartment. Sure, they were lousy cooks, and didn't have any money, but that's actually more like college than camping, in my opinion.

I think you guys are on to something, as far as the camping plot as a fantasy literature device. It does seem to be everywhere. The Pevensies sleep in caves in The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe, Taran does his fair share of sleeping in the wilderness in the Prydain Chronicles, heck, think of the Millenium Falcon as a futuristic motorhome, and what would you call The Empire Strikes Back? The point is to isolate the characters. When your heroes have little information and no way to contact the outside world, you get to see a little more of what they're made of. What the HP camping sequence really drove home for me is how unprepared Harry was for leadership. He needed that time in isolation to get his priorities straight so he could do what needed to be done in the final battle.


Hufflepuff. Hands down.

This is very true, the Hero's must always be shown going through trails and difficulties, this is just another way to show it and a unique way I think as well. The torturous jouney of being on the run, isolated and pushed to the limits just isn't in any other place of the books. We now have an idea of what Sirius must have gone through having his own isolated journey.

Thanks btw Hufflemuffinx, it's a nice quote to explain to people why I read Fantasy/Sci-Fi over just plain fiction



I still get choked up thinking about Silver Doe chapter; you know I had forgotten about the Poppies scene until you mentioned it. Voldemort and even Albus had some oversights in the finale of the Potter series. Harry being out in the wild so to speak and constantly on the move was the Trio's greatest weapon. You would have thought then Voldemort would try to find something to bait Harry with but he never did. Which brings up the point about single minded obessions and how it can blind you. I think Camping alot of times in fantasy is used for the Hero to have time to reflect on his path and journey and our Trio certainly does that. It allows for more clarity that the Villains miss out on because they cloister themselves or only see one thing in front of them and it causes their downfall.

As for which House Glenda would be in I was going to say Ravenclaw, but maybe I should re-watch to be certain *heh*



I think the Tent isn't cheating as Campers and Trailers can be used by muggles and that's basically what the Magic Tent was though infinatly more portable to be sure. I believe they did have some money didn't Hermione go shopping and leave some money behind?

I could probably list alot of stories that had camping in it like Willow, Wheel of Time, Memory/Sorrow/Thorn trilogy, and etc. The key here is as you pointed out, Isolation.

Well the Munkins do like to party don't they?

I completely agree with DaisyRenee's and Shard's outlook on the camping scenes as a time of isolation, and it's a time of self reflection too. Harry truly wasn't ready to carry out the leadership role that was thrust upon him. So I really felt like the camping scenes were times of growth. The trio only had each other to rely on and these times in the tent to me were a test of their love, friendship and loyalty, not only for each other but for the wizarding world. I'm sure they wanted to back out and were second guessing themselves many times over, but eventually, after struggling with their inner demons they came out of those camping scenes much stronger and more mature individuals.

From a spiritual perspective, wandering in the wilderness or a retreat to the wilderness is a time when one reflects, is tempted and discovers one's purpose. Moses spends time as a shepherd in the wilderness. And, after crossing the Red Sea with the Israelites, leads his people in a nomadic fashion about the Sinai.

I agree with Shard who said that the Silver Doe was one of the better chapters in the whole book. (Though I remain unimpressed that Harry ran off leaving Hermione defenceless and asleep. If something had happened to him, she'd have been stuck behind those wards, or obliged to look for him unprotected, and with no means to set up new wards. This was near the end of the camping 'time of growth' and he was still acting without thinking - was nothing learned from Godric's Hollow?)

As I've said in an earlier post, they could have rowed and not been talking, Harry runs off, Ron is coming back from a pee (which is why he doesn't go and get Hermione) and follows/ saves him. Same story, same result, Ron saves Harry and faces his demons, 50 empty pages cut, effect of the Horcrux not needed. Tolkien wasn't the first, but it's so similar and the storyline wasn't important enough for it to be worth inviting the comparison. The Deluminator is something I've seen attacked almost as much as the Camping, so if it wasn't necessary, even better.

I disagree that a couple of good scenes were a defence for the camping section. They could easily have happened within a shorter, tauter, far better edited 'lost in the woods' episode. Same with the Godric's Hollow chapter. Apart from those bright spots, the camping scenes were repetitive. The Trio were cut off from the action - but so were we. I agree with those who said that Voldemort should have baited him. The Weasleys, though Pure-Blood, could have been arrested and put on trial to draw Harry out the minute the Ministry fell, I was surprised they didn't immediately go into hiding (or just put a Fidelius Charm on the Burrow, but that's another story!)

JKR is a compelling story teller, but the story would have benefited from the structure of the school year. However she chose that the Ministry should fall in August, not December so that was out. I actually didn't mind the idea of no Hogwarts, I'd have enjoyed something new, but not the same points rammed home more than once. All the excitement of the world at war being fed to us in snippets well after the event. The 'tent' scenes were tension free zones. How could you feel too sorry for them having to hide away, for their difficulties and suffering, when younger students were running the risk of being tortured everyday at Hogwarts? Anyway, vast numbers of other people were in hiding - Dean and Ted Tonks amongst the many muggleborns and dissidents etc. They might not have been the famous Harry Potter, but they were still running the risk of death/Azkaban, so 90% of what Harry went through was nothing special or individual, just tiresome.

Meanwhile, the Trio were bickering amongst themselves, despite being the only people who knew what the key to defeating Voldemort was. The Trio should have got through this 'learning process' with each other in previous books (which I though they had), started pulling together from the start and spent this book dealing with the war and enemies at hand as adults.

I also can't accept that Kreacher would have been a security risk, so Harry shouldn't have summoned him. Harry was always taking foolhardy risks. He actually thought of Kreacher when Hermione told him she'd dropped Yaxley on the doorstep. He wasn't concerned or aware of any security risk - we know that for a fact, because we read his thoughts. He simply worried about Kreacher wondering where they were, and the delicious pie that he was preparing. If he was going to be so thoughtless, why not check on Kreacher's well-being while he did it?

Kreacher could easily have got away from Hogwarts once a week - nobody paid the slightest bit of attention to the House Elves under Dumbledore's regime, it could only have got worse under Snape/Carrows. If a House Elf actually travelled with them, it'd have to be Dobby, as he was free and could choose to. I still like the idea of Dobby stating upfront, that as a free elf, he was choosing to fight for the cause and to call him whenever they needed him. Then when he died for it, that death would really mean something. Instead he was sent to help Harry by Aberforth and, even though I'm sure he was happy to, it wasn't his decision to take those sorts of risks, so he might as well still be owned.

As my version of the camping would be about a month long, however, there'd be no need for anything more than about 4 house elf visits. Godric's Hallow could have happened in August, while still at Grimmauld Place. Harry did say, at the end of HBP, that he wanted to go there first. Silver Doe and The Lovegood's during the month camping. Two events in one months camping isn't overdoing it, surely, as they were meant to be on a quest of vast importance.

To summarise (at last!) There's nothing wrong with being in a tent. There's a lot wrong when nothing actually happens in it. I'm not convinced by the 'time for growth/learning/reflection/to mature/gain wisdom' arguments, when it ends with Harry's worst mistake of all! Breaking the Taboo proves to me that he learnt nothing and ended that section much the same person as he began it. If he did start to learn, it was from hearing Hermione's screams of agony and burying Dobby, and he didn't need to camp for 200+ pages to make that mistake, just to act without thinking. I wouldn't mind the camping aspect, if it was filled with intelligent discussion, careful planning, various events, and a reasonable amount of despair I could emphasise with. Endless whining is dull, especially as it we'd heard it all before. Eg. Only 33% of the pages spent on Dumbledore's past were needed, and we'd still get the point.

I just think that as they weren't at Hogwarts, there was no point in following the school year (which I think JKR was aiming for) and the Final Battle could have happened on All Hallow's Eve. It'd have been taut and gripping, instead of losing fans which I sadly know it did. Starting with Malfoy Manor, it really picked up again, (and Dobby's funeral showed that it wasn't action people were missing, but good storytelling, filled with emotion, to draw them in). Sadly for some, that was too late. A real shame.

Well, SarahW, I don't really understand what it is you want from the wandering in the wilderness. It seems to me you want melodrama.

During the Silver Doe chapter, Harry is about to call Hermione, but Harry believes the doe is his personal vision. It calls to him the way the Mirror of Erised did. He knows the doe was sent for him.