I've noticed that both Dobby and Kreacher refer to themselves in third person, and got to thinking that it might be intentional of J. K. Rowling, to emphasize elves' depersonalization in the wizarding world. However, Harry is also referred to in third person (to his face) by Dobby, and Dobby continues to speak of himself in third person after he is liberated. Also, Winky is an exception to this finding, as she does not refer to herself in third person. I was just wondering if anyone else has noticed this, what they think about it, and if you think its purpose is to show the depersonalization of house-elves, or if it's just one of Dobby and Kreacher's odd quirks?

　

Interesting observation. I've never really thought about what JKR was trying to accomplish by having the house elves use the third person.

By "depersonalization" do you mean "to make a house elf seem more non-human", or do you mean "to remove a house elf's individuality?"

For me, it was the former. The house elves' use of the third person didn't depersonalized them in the sense where I was less invested in what happened to them as individuals. IMO, it really emphasized their fundamental difference (being non-humans) from the wizards. It also made them seem more child-like to me (despite their powers and intelligence)... perhaps because I've known a few young kids who used the third person while learning to talk. So it was an endearing trait to me and made me more sympathetic towards them.

It's not just the use of the third person that I always noticed, it was the atrocious grammar all around. It's like the house-elves have their own dialect. How on earth do they all learn to speak like that? It's not like they all live in a separate community or something (which is how regional dialects are formed). House-elves seem to be very isolated from one another; they all live with different masters, and hardly ever leave the house. So how did they all come to speak in the same dialect, when they have such little contact with one another?

Some, like Winky, may have picked it up from their parents. Winky said that her family had been working for the Crouches for at least 3 generations. But then, how did Winky's grandmother learn to talk like that?

Yeah, that does seem to be the case. However, we know from the top box scene at the Quidditch World Cup that Dobby and Winky knew each other before she was sacked by Barty Sr. Also, Winky knew about Harry and his treatment of house elves and she knew how Dobby was doing (and she disapproved of him). IMO there's sort kind of house elf network where they at least exchange info and news even if they don't socialize and live in a community. Though that still doesn't fully explain the dialect or speech pattern.

I do notice that J.K. Rowling likes to use peoples first and last names a lot. If I wanted to be cirtical I'd suggest she was trying to subliminaly slam the characters names into our heads. I don't know if I'm the only one who notices this, but I'd say the characters say the full name "Harry Potter" almost as much as they say "Harry" .

As for the House Elves speaking in third person, I don't find it at all weird. It kind of reminds me of the vietnamese language. In vietnamese, you are expected to address everyone according to their age, and your age relative to them. In Vietnamese, ahn is older brother, and so if you are talking to an older male you have to use the word "ahn" where "you" would be used. Sorry for the confusing language lesson.

Other than that, a good way to make someone seem "inhuman" is to have them use proper nouns instead of pronouns.

Well, since in the wizarding world (which also parallels the non-magical world) seems to associate personhood (which also means individuality) to humans only, it's a little of both. It's hard to tell whether or not it is something deliberate of J. K. Rowling to show through their language, their depersonalization in the wizarding world. After a while of reading Dobby and Kreacher refer to themselves in the third person, it seemed to be another way their significance could be diminished, or to be seemingly nonexistent to witches and wizards. Third-person references are typically used of another person, and when they are not in the room. So when house-elves, who are slaves, use the third person in reference to themselves, it almost seems to remove them from the room, to take a step further from the "seen but not heard" relationship of the house-elf to the master. I see the use of "I" as acknowledging the self, the individual, or person. So when I noticed that two of the main house-elves in the series didn't use it, I thought it might be deliberate.

Again, it's tough to tell, since Winky is an exception, and since Dobby and Kreacher don't just use it in reference to themselves, but to other wizards or witches whom they've even befriended.

It also could just show how removed Dobby and Kreacher were from any real social contact with wizards and witches. I got the impression Winky was "closer" to the Crouch family, that she was more exposed to wizarding culture, and language, so this might also have to do with it. I just found it interesting, and was curious about it.

Referring to yourself in third person is easy enough to understand. It is probably a psychological defense mechanism: 'This isn't happening to me, it's happening to Dobby'. That speech pattern would then have been passed down from generation to generation.

As for their common dialect/sociolect and peculiar use of grammar: There is a real life phenomenon (and I'm guessing there are more examples around the world that I know nothing about) of this. African American Vernacular English (AAVE), sometimes referred to as ebonics, sounds phonetically a lot like some southern American accents but it bears traits of other languages' grammar and vocubulary (presumably these languages were the African slaves' native tongues). This English dialect is so distinctive in its variations from so called Standard American English that linguists have identified several standard features of it (which I won't list here) and how it varies from the standard (I hate using words like standard, it seems to indicate that AAVE is sub-standard, which I DON'T agree with). Anyway, linguist debates aside, for this thread's purpose, the interesting part is that after slavery was abolished the slaves' descendants slowly started spreading across the continent to look for work wherever it was offered but they brought their dialect with them, and they kept it alive, so AAVE can still be heard all over the country and is frequently used in literature.

Maybe, at one stage, elves were living together, speaking a language of their own (just like merpeople and goblins) which influenced their way of speaking English. Even after the separation from their fellow elves they might've kept the dialect, out of loyalty to their kind.

I think it's to show that they have little education, and also not much sense of self. They don't refer to themselves as 'I' because they don't ever think of themselves. They are servants to wizards, but they don't have any real meaning. to most wizards, elfs are hardly alive, and so they have come to refer to themselves as things, and not as something with an actual personality, i guess.

Dobby had difficulty dissing his previous masters even after he was free - meaning that full liberation starts with one gaining one's freedom but does not end with it.

House-elves were servants who were expected to be subservient.

The word "I" is a word of power - it is a means of taking ownership of one's feelings and thoughts.

"Maybe we should wait until after supper to have cookies"

is not as authoritative as saying

"I think we should wait until after supper to have cookies"

Dobby doesn't use the word "I" but I don't remember much use of the word "you" either.

"Maybe we can do something else"

is less authoritative than

"Will you stop doing that"

It may be forbidden for House-Elves to address themselves as "I" or address their masters as "you"

As far as each other, it would be a different matter - house elves take pride as to who their master is - having an inferior person act as if they are the house-elf's master is an act of shaming. Thus, for house-elves to use the words "I" and "you" would be to elevate themselves over other house-elves and would be a means of shaming each other.

(I wish there were a “thanks” button for posts on these forums...)

I agree; house-elves aren’t really used to thinking about themselves, or even really acknowledging themselves, because their “purpose” is to serve humans. They also don’t communicate much with humans, since they are viewed as "inferior" beings to be ignored, and they are just expected to do what they are told, so they really hardly have any experience socializing with others, which helps to acknowledge the self through verbal communication.